What is "consolisation" and why does it exist? Or Simulated Skill v Player Skill - by SubJeff
Aja on 4/2/2011 at 07:00
You were doing good up until the last paragraph.
Renzatic on 4/2/2011 at 07:27
I have to agree with him on one point. The analog sticks do suck for precise 3D movement. People can make a billion and one compromises to try and make it work, but no matter what they do, it'll never be as smooth and natural aiming with the right thumb stick as it is the mouse.
The good news is that this is probably going to be the last generation that uses dual analog. With the Wiimote, the PS Move, and the Kinect, we're already seeing the future of console controllers. With something like the (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaezAuXCcwE&feature=related) Razor Sixense, which is basically a dual analog wiimote/nunchuck mix with 6 buttons within easy grasp of your thumb and index fingers, you wouldn't need an oldschool gamepad. Not even for platformers. It's the best of all worlds.
The only advantage the kb/m would have over that would be the split second 180 degree turns we all know and love. And of course having access to a shitload of keys.
Sulphur on 4/2/2011 at 09:21
Quote Posted by Koki
We had this argument over at STALKER Steam forums the other day and, with a bit of clever Metro 2033 trickery, managed to fit the entire CoP control scheme on a 360 pad. The amount of
immediately reachable buttons for WSAD and a pad is roughly the same anyway.
The entire scheme? How easy was the game to play though? I don't think having lean
and combining that with two levels of crouch/prone would have been very workable on a pad.
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And hardware constraints can be overcome. Far Cry 2 was huge and open and it was both on 360 and PS3. Deus Ex was ported to PS2 almost completely unchanged.
You talking about the size of the gameworld? Because I don't think that's really a point of debate.
Edit: Also, something else about DE:HR's cover system -- you don't
need to use it if you don't want to, I guess? Depends on whether the 'move to cover' button also lets you just attach to cover by itself.
Briareos H on 4/2/2011 at 09:57
Quote Posted by Aja
You were doing good up until the last paragraph.
Actually he's damn right. The assertion "The real problem with consoles is the analog stick, the TV and a different gaming culture." encompasses the whole answer to the problem. The points about TV/couch distance and analog sticks? All true. About the culture? Well Koki knowingly takes shortcuts (as usual) as many games are made to require at least some part of core involvement (last examples which come to mind are Red Dead Redemption and Dead Space) - but there is no denying that console gamers who were not raised on PC approach games differently.
With console gaming, there is that looming atmosphere that you can put the pad down and forget about it altogether. When I think about PC - about
my PC - there's a much closer relationship of which games are part on a personal matter. It's nerdy and quite more asocial, it's linked to the proximity of the screen and controls, to the fact that you use the PC for just about
everything leading to a sense of entitled freedom. And when this freedom is arbitrarily restrained by forced distance from the game and your control over it, it feels unpleasantly touching and makes you moan over "consolisation" - objectively or not.
You wouldn't understand because it seems to me you were raised on console games.
Malf on 4/2/2011 at 10:09
I don't think "consolisation" is the correct term; it implies that the consoles themselves are to blame, when in actual fact, the blame lies at the feet of focus groups, the franchise mentality, developer laziness and the uninformed consumer.
I think it's better to criticise the bad aspects of a game for what they are and what guided the decisions behind them rather than blame it on one platform or another.
Sulphur on 4/2/2011 at 10:52
Quote Posted by Briareos H
Actually he's damn right. The assertion "The real problem with consoles is the analog stick, the TV and a different gaming culture." encompasses the whole answer to the problem. The points about TV/couch distance and analog sticks? All true. About the culture? Well Koki knowingly takes shortcuts (as usual) as many games are made to require at least some part of core involvement (last examples which come to mind are Red Dead Redemption and Dead Space) - but there is no denying that console gamers who were not raised on PC approach games differently.
With console gaming, there is that looming atmosphere that you can put the pad down and forget about it altogether. When I think about PC - about
my PC - there's a much closer relationship of which games are part on a personal matter. It's nerdy and quite more asocial, it's linked to the proximity of the screen and controls, to the fact that you use the PC for just about
everything leading to a sense of entitled freedom. And when this freedom is arbitrarily restrained by forced distance from the game and your control over it, it feels unpleasantly touching and makes you moan over "consolisation" - objectively or not.
You wouldn't understand because it seems to me you were raised on console games.
Okay, I understand this thread was doomed from the start because it's inherently a 'PC Vs. Consoles' debate yet again, so it's going to get mired in the 'platform X sucks because it's inherently made of fail (liek you)' and so on.
But hang on. Most of every gaming generation was raised on console games - consoles were literally the starting point for gaming - except for the select PC nerds and geeks who were completely entranced by the PC and their C64s and Spectrums and Amigas and nothing else.
I don't know about you, but when I played Mario on the NES it wasn't so much about having fun as it was to be single-mindedly driven to the end of the level. Putting down the pad?
My pad? Impossible, unless I wanted to fling it at the TV. When I played Descent on the PC, it was about being single-mindedly driven to find the mine reactor and blow it up. Letting go of the mouse and keyboard?
My mouse and keyboard? Impossible, unless it was to snap the keyboard on my knee in a fit of rage as I got swallowed up in a great apocalyptic fireball five times in a row.
You're making the mistake of attributing behaviour to ownership. There's no doubt there's an impact that a system as isolating as a PC has, but it doesn't change a child's behaviour completely. A normal, socially active child does not become a closed-off geek by virtue of his interest in computer games. And vice-versa, if you a nerdy child who suddenly started liking console games it wouldn't make you more socially active either.
As far as 'looming atmospheres' go, I really don't see how the couch vs. chair argument works today. Some people prefer gaming on their couch, some people prefer gaming in front of their PCs on the chair. The couch people could be playing something like, well, Dead Space 2 on their couch. And the PC guys would prefer playing the same game on their PCs. The same goes for Bioshock, or Metro, or any other multiplat game du jour.
I don't see any forced change in atmosphere honestly, unless the game in question was fundamentally gimped to be easier and played in spurts on the consoles.
Chade on 4/2/2011 at 11:15
One aspect of this debate that has always puzzled me is the supposed desirability of a precise control scheme. I doubt that the ability to master dumb strategies like "aim better" makes the game more intelligent.
Koki on 4/2/2011 at 11:24
Quote Posted by Sulphur
The entire scheme? How easy was the game to play though?
I never did, I don't have a console :rolleyes:
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But hang on. Most of every gaming generation was raised on console games - consoles were literally the starting point for gaming - except for the select PC nerds and geeks who were completely entranced by the PC and their C64s and Spectrums and Amigas and nothing else.
The select PC nerds being what, basically entire Europe(especially the eastern parts of it)? (S)NES might have been huge in USA because it has close ties with Japan, but in Europe it was far from being the primary gaming platform.
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As far as 'looming atmospheres' go, I really don't see how the couch vs. chair argument works today.
Right, half-lying on the couch few meters away from the screen in the living room and hunching 50cm away from the screen in your room with headphones on. Barely any difference.
Quote Posted by "Renzatic"
The good news is that this is probably going to be the last generation that uses dual analog.
That's what they said about Wiimote. Hell, I said that about Wiimote. And look how it ended up - silly gimmick, if it's in the game at all it's obvious the game was made for the pad and "ported" to the Wiimote later. How is Sixaxis going to be any different? And Kinect? I remember when it was called EyeToy.
Briareos H on 4/2/2011 at 11:42
@Sulphur
First, any 'behaviour' I'm writing about is gaming-related behaviour. I never said gaming had an impact on general-related issues, I was discussing the 'gaming culture' aspect.
Your post confirms that I'm a traditionalist and my opinion is skewed in this manner - yet I'm sure many, many 80's born gamers are in the same case. I grew up with an Amiga, then a PC. All my console experience comes from friends. Recently, I played RDR with a friend of mine. It was great, enthralling, immersive and I didn't want it to stop but when came the moment to get ourselves drunk and kick off a jam, we just stopped the console and grabbed a beer.
So basically, I'm one of those people to whom consoles are inherently social and just don't click the same way as the asocial pleasure of computer games. Dark room, alone with your game - the kind of experience you had with Super Mario when you were a child. For sure, the line between social and asocial gaming is getting blurred by the ability to play anywhere with whatever platform - still - through everything that's been said before about the interface and design, consoles and console games seem to encourage a lot more that open and lean behaviour which I find so less immersive.
Manwe on 4/2/2011 at 13:05
Quote:
Deus Ex was ported to PS2 almost completely unchanged.
You mean except for the huge levels being cut into tiny little fragments, with huge loading times between each sections ? Although I agree that's not an issue anymore on the current generation of consoles. But I wouldn't say (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IqFsw3iPf4) this is "almost completely unchanged". In fact I'd say this is precisely what completely overhauled, and streamlined is. Which, again, was completely necessary for the game to be even remotely playable on a console.
