Aja on 9/2/2006 at 06:14
Whenever I play Thief or Thief 2, I don't really feel like I'm playing a game. In fact, the closest way to describe Thief is that it's like reading a good book.
People say the graphics are ugly, but I don't think I even notice the graphics - if, for example, I wander into a room with no furniture, I don't think "hmm, the designer should've put some furniture in", I think "hmm, the people who live here really should put some furniture in".
Very rarely there'll be some glitch that breaks the immersion, but even though the guards are totally predictable to me now, the un-gamey-ness of the Thief is almost unwavering.
What is it about these games that give them such a unique quality? I mean, games like Half Life 2 have loads of detail, realistic graphics and sound, fluid level progression, and yet when I play them I always feel somewhat detached. There's something about exploring a level in Thief that just feels different from other games. The graphic style has this indescribable quality to it... I was hoping maybe someone here could articulate the reason why it feels the way it does - or do you guys even see it the way I do?
Could it be the minimalist nature of Thief's interface and HUD? Could the fact that the Dark Engine is subtractive in nature have something to do with it? Other games have immersive sound, solid control mechanics and many have an even better art design than Thief.
So what on earth is it that makes Thief different? I'm curious to hear your opinions on the subject.
Jashin on 9/2/2006 at 06:38
It's the sound, it's always been the sound.
What you do in FPS games (although HL2's very atmospheric to me) is you run around and kill people in a hurry, and the ones you don't kill end up repeating the same lines everytime. A typical FPS also requires you to move really fast, negating some of the effects of the atmospheric sound design and lessens the meaning of locales. The point is about shooting, the reward is the kill.
Thief lets you eavesdrop in the shadows OR not at all, there's enough randomness there to keep things interesting. Also stealth places audio cues on par with visual cues by making its effect on gameplay constant. The point is about movement, the reward is [whatever it is to you]. Inside the brackets is one of the key reasons why Thief only has limited appeal - some people just don't like to sneak, and others when they do, they want to be able to live if they're caught. Thief makes both very difficult.
I personally think Thief 3 has a very surreal artistic style that projects the subject and settings, and I disagree with some folks calling it "cartoony." PC version shouldn't have loading zones, but the core game is meritable.
New Horizon on 9/2/2006 at 07:07
Quote Posted by Jashin
I personally think Thief 3 has a very surreal artistic style that projects the subject and settings, and I disagree with some folks calling it "cartoony." PC version shouldn't have loading zones, but the core game is meritable.
Well, as an artist myself, I would certainly call it cartoonish. It's far from even being close to what qualifies as surreal. ;)
What made Thief great, was the sum of all it's parts.
ManzoK on 9/2/2006 at 07:19
Just because it's a Masterpiece and not a common game!
demagogue on 9/2/2006 at 07:27
Well, if you want to get into the psychology of it, my guess is that it's the level of world-interactivity.
Unlike so many FPS's, you feel actually *in* the world in Thief because you constantly have to use the world around you, and I mean really "use" it. You have to use the shadows, feel their place in the corners and feel it blanketing you; you have to use the walls to obstruct yourself from a guard; you have to use a vase to make a distraction; you are mostly shooting arrows *at the environment*: a waterarrow at a torch you want to get past; a noisearrow in the corner of a room you want the guards to walk. I mean, when I walk into a new room in Thief, the first thing I do is look around and see what this room offers me ... I notice the space of it and think how I can "use" that space -- not just as some gimmick puzzle like most FPSs, but using it in a very human way (I don't know how to better phrase that). Having to use the world puts me in the world. (Just saying this reminds me of Heidegger's whole analysis of being-in-the-world: you're in it just to the extent you're using it, but anyway that's an aside.)
I can't think of any FPS that does any of this anywhere nearly as convincingly. Sure you have to be walk carefully in other FPSs so you aren't seen before you go in blasting ... but that's not the same as really using the environment.
Aja on 9/2/2006 at 07:55
You might be right... maybe the graphics themselves don't have much to do with it. The levels are generally not that realistic anyway... and it's true, I can't think of another game that offers the level of interactivity that Thief does. Good answer, there, dem. :)
kamyk on 9/2/2006 at 08:22
In my opinion it is some of the above, especially the interactivity, and the pacing, but there are another thing or two. Mainly the lighting, and sound.
The sound. In most games of any type, the sound is well... just sound. It dosn't really affect the gameplay much (although that has been improving over the last several years). In thief, the sound is as important as anything else, if not more so. Yes, half life, and doom have enemies that react to hearing you, but in Thief ALL of the AI do, unless the level designer is lazy, or has a reason for them not to. And even Half life and Doom don't have distinctions for different floor types. Maybe different sounds, but the sounds carry the same. I can't count how many times I shot off the rocket launcher in Doom3, and nothing came around the corner to investigate the noise. In Thief, they will (investigate noise).
The lighting. There may be other games that use lighting in a similar way, but I haven't played any yet. Doom3 LOOKS great, but do the shadows do anything other than look great? Ok, they hide enemies. But can YOU use them? (At least until the Dark Mod is done anyway).
Nearly everything in Thief is interactive. Both for the AI, AND for the player. Including the lighting and sound.
New Horizon on 9/2/2006 at 15:21
Quote Posted by kamyk
But can YOU use them? (At least until the Dark Mod is done anyway).
Our AI are still pretty early in development, but already we can use shadows. It's very promising when an AI catches a glimpse and I hear..."huh"?
dcool on 9/2/2006 at 16:40
For me what makes Thief amazing is the community and the online mod makers, who have helped the world in the game to grow and injected a sense of (black) humor into it. I came into playing Thief 1 late and never really appreciated it as much as some of you who were there from the beginning, but Thief 2 just knocked my socks off, and T2X likewise. Also I live in Canterbury, and the town has loads of features which look like things from the Thief world. Some day I will have to take some photos and put them on here to show you.
jprobs on 9/2/2006 at 17:11
For myself, I agree with Aja here. I feel playing Thief I & II is like reading a book.
I get so deeply involved in the game at times, that I cant even count the number of times I have jumped or fallen from my chair. I actually ruined a mouse once by pulling it with me and ripping the cable from the mouse. I have tried numerous games and none have captured what thief does. (playing with headphones on makes thief a better experience)
You don't pull guns and blow people to kingdom come, running as fast as you can. With thief you sneak, sit and wait, hide, die easily, plan your moves, etc. Also the levels in thief I & II allowed you to explore at your own pace. You are not forced to follow a certain path.
Alot of it, I feel, is because of the audio in the game... I still get chills when I hear haunts with clanking chains, and that psychotic laugh.
