Renault on 3/1/2018 at 19:43
Isn't it pretty much understood in the world of FMs that if a door is not frobbable, it's for aesthetics only and the player isn't meant to go there? I think most players get that, and the position of the handle shouldn't really matter much.
What else should authors do if they want a unpassable door there, use a texture?
Judith on 3/1/2018 at 19:56
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What else should authors do if they want a unpassable door there, use a texture?
Yup. The flat texture vs. door model with handle is Thief's equivalent of affordance in design; basic concept, used way back to OMs. It's not about whether the door is frobabble or not. It's about whether player has a way to visually distinguish between frobable doors and dead ends, without frustarting trial and error.
gamophyte on 3/1/2018 at 23:58
Quote Posted by Judith
— Unfrobable doors with handles, especially those with handle turned down, as if they were unlocked. It's rookie mapper mistake or maybe just plain trolling, as I saw veterans with huge campaigns under their belts doing this as well..
I gave this some thought some time ago, and I settled on this not being a issue for me, at least. You figure you won't know if a door can open unless you walk over and try it, just like real life. I personally enjoy sneaking in thief, it's not a drag to sneak over to a door that was a dead end. Design is key though, as in, was it really fun in the first place ect. I would say though it would be evil if it was locked but wasn't real, with sound and all. Looking at you OMs!
Edit: And I guess I hate flat boring stuff more than a false door.
Judith on 4/1/2018 at 00:23
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You figure you won't know if a door can open unless you walk over and try it, just like real life.
That's the problem. Video games are not life and they are not meant to be life. Mappers can guide players in smart ways, just as photographers or other artists can guide viewers' eyes within the frame. Trying and checking every door in the level is not meaningful gameplay.
gamophyte on 4/1/2018 at 01:29
Quote Posted by Judith
Video games are not life and they are not meant to be life.
My statement doesn't qualify trying to make the game as a whole, real life. I would like a bit of realism that I can make due with in that one aspect, among some other,
because of game level design. There are only going to be so many doors in a mission, most of which will open to a real place. I won't be sorry to make a mission in which the player was led to every door, in fact false doors can help reveal something else. Again I rather this, than flat awful textures that I am supposed to believe is a door. You see great windows in all these missions, some of which are objects. I had no issues with checking all that I could reach because I think it's fun.
This is my preference as it were, though. That being said if the flat texture looks good enough, and works for where it's placed, I may go with in.
There is other designations you can make that are against realism but for better gameplay I do agree with. I thought about subtly color coding the paper stock, of important readables from unimportant (story only) readables. I may have a aura around loot and secrets that you only see up close to prevent the player from frob-spamming, and rewarding them for looking closely.
Judith on 4/1/2018 at 08:23
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Again I rather this, than flat awful textures that I am supposed to believe is a door. You see great windows in all these missions, some of which are objects. I had no issues with checking all that I could reach because I think it's fun.
You can always make a door model, just without a handle. The visual design communicating gameplay design is what's important here. And it already kind of works, even as we speak about it. You are repelled from such doors ("awful flat textures") and that is exactly the purpose. (Also, if you don't like flat textures, come to DarkMod, we have normalmaps.) You might like checking absolutely everything in the game, but that's not meaningful gameplay either. Compare it to books or films, where e.g. the whole distance the character has to cover to get to some place is described or filmed only as long as it contributes to something, his/her story arc, general story etc. There's nothing wrong about having a moment of searching of every nook and cranny in the room, but it has to be one of many other activities in a gameplay flow, to make mission interesting.
That door example is kind of irrelevant here, Tannis. I mean it is, in terms of stressing how awful the old-school design was, but even then it misses important context. Resident Evil games were about avoiding zombies in tight corridors. Checking these doors, as tedious as it was, went pretty fast, because of tight spaces and nothing between the player and the goal, except for zombies of course. Now in Thief FMs, you can spend a minute or two trying to avoid guards and getting across the room to a fake door that looks like a real one, only to discover they're not frobable. That is bad design and waste of players' time.
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I thought about subtly color coding the paper stock, of important readables from unimportant (story only) readables. I may have a aura around loot and secrets that you only see up close to prevent the player from frob-spamming, and rewarding them for looking closely.
This is good stuff. In my WIP DarkMod FM, I use subtle fresnel-like outline for interactive objects, so players will be drawn to them in the first place. It's not as shiny and in your face as in e.g. Bioshock or Dishonored, but it has that little shimmer that will make you check it.
Melan on 4/1/2018 at 11:55
Quote Posted by Brethren
Isn't it pretty much understood in the world of FMs that if a door is not frobbable, it's for aesthetics only and the player isn't meant to go there? I think most players get that, and the position of the handle shouldn't really matter much.
Not necessarily, because some doors are operarated by switches, even switches from the other side or hidden ones.
Quote Posted by Brethren
What else should authors do if they want a unpassable door there, use a texture?
That's the general solution - looks like a door from afar, can be identified as a texture from close by. However, there is no fits-100%-of-all-cases fix.
In The Dark Mod, using a curved latch object is one way to communicate the door is not frobable (but it is not a universal convention).
Judith on 4/1/2018 at 13:23
I only played SH2 to SH: The Room, but yeah. Hospital was annoying, although this was only when everything was turned "inside-out"? Not sure. Even that first apartament in SH2 used that a bit too often. But we had waay more free time back then.
