Renault on 21/1/2021 at 14:59
This argument seems ridiculous. Is there a single Thief mission (OM or FM) where every door is frobbable and the interior is accessible? How about any other video game levels or mission? The answer is no, and there's a reason for that.
I'm playing around with making a medium sized FM where there are 4 locations of importance. Should I just make a short street and have all four locations right next to each other then? That would be pretty jarring, and not very immersive (or fun).
Purgator on 21/1/2021 at 15:46
Thought this was a "Pet Peeve" thread? Pet peeves don't have to make sense to others, hence the "Pet" qualifier. It's something personal, and can seem totally batshit crazy to those who don't share that view. If you're married you would have learned that by now!
skacky on 21/1/2021 at 15:49
Fair enough, but as Brethren mentioned, they must be irritated with pretty much every map for every game ever. Decor elements are fake by nature.
To elaborate a bit, there are a lot of reasons why, say, a corridor has fake doorways and nothing in it. These areas are usually just connectors and only serve this purpose, and having every little room accessible in a level spanning multiple locations/buildings is an unrealistic prospect both on a technical level (engine limits, etc) and on a level design perspective. Not only would that be extremely boring, but it would be confusing too because the level would then become unfocused and there is a good chance the player would be lost and bored out of their mind. Rooms with nothing in them are fine. Set-dressing that makes a basic, boring room look like part of a coherent whole is fine. It's when there's too many empty locations that don't serve any purpose that it becomes a problem.
Renault on 21/1/2021 at 16:38
Quote Posted by Purgator
Thought this was a "Pet Peeve" thread?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'm not saying they aren't. I'm just giving mine.
I think this particular peeve might be a situation of be careful what you ask for. Imagine a level like Assassins or Ambush that have what, 40-50 different buildings? And 45 of them have nothing to do with objectives, you just break in, steal a purse off a shelf or a coinstack on a table, and then move on to the next one. I think that's way more of the "filler" that Vincent mentioned than just having a blank facade.
Galaer on 21/1/2021 at 21:15
Quote Posted by Brethren
I think this particular peeve might be a situation of be careful what you ask for.
First, look at the title of this thread. It encourage people to say what's their personal irritating thing in FMs is. There is nothing like "Hey, let's discuss every opinion you disagree with". So already this disagreeing discussion feels completely pointless. And by the way, what exactly you want to achieve? Do you really want him to love something that he hates just because of technical stuff and engine limitation? That's really lame excuse. Instead you feel really agitated like his opinion is personal attack on your person. It's not. So you are making this pointless war of arguments just to prove how his opinion is stupid. That's childish. Everyone have rights to make their opinion. Bear with that.
Quote Posted by Brethren
Imagine a level like Assassins or Ambush that have what, 40-50 different buildings?
But let's just look at these missions:
Assassins - city part serves only 2 purposes: to follow thieves and if you get spotted in mansion, you must escape to Garrett's house. Exploring city itself is pointless, because it's empty. There is no loot, no items, no equipment (other than from starting shop), no readables, no nothing. I remember the first time I decided to go explore this city and find out that there is absolutely nothing there. That's really disappointing. The only redeeming factors are: fallowing thieves is creative gimmick and Ramirez Mansion is well designed and has lots of loot.
Ambush - big city mansion without special gimmick and without any mansion. Unlike city from Assassins, it has some content. But it's just not enough. There are few loot pieces, few places with food, few places with equipment, few readables and few conversation and that's all. It feels like there is only 5% of content in this mission and rest is just walking and KO-ing enemies. It's really boring. There are also some building that you can enter, but again they are empty, they are just passages. Because of this lack of content for me Ambush is the worst mission in Thief 2. It's really wasted potential.
If these empty cities would have these extra 40-50 buildings with loot, then it wouldn't be more boring. No, because finally there would be a point to explore them.
Quote Posted by Brethren
And 45 of them have nothing to do with objectives, you just break in, steal a purse off a shelf or a coinstack on a table, and then move on to the next one. I think that's way more of the "filler" that Vincent mentioned than just having a blank facade.
Since Assassins has loot objective I'm guessing you don't count it as main objective. Because of that and your last statement, I'm guessing that you didn't play too many Fan Missions in your life. Most of city missions have lots of extra building with loot. They are accessible via doors, balconies, windows, etc. And most of them isn't connected to main (non-loot) objectives. Even Life of the Party has a lot of optional building to explore and main objectives are located in Angelwatch. You didn't mention this as example. I guess you were aware that talking about LotP would backfire.
Another example - right now I'm playing Home Sweet Home by Lady Rowena. Mission is based on Ambush. There is a lot of new extra buildings with extra loot and no connection to main objectives. And I have a lot of fun visiting them. You want to tell me that this extra stuff is bigger filler than lack of it? You sure about that?
FireMage on 21/1/2021 at 22:42
Looks like you lost yourself in your argument, my dear Galaer.
Because you're saying the exact same thing that Brethren was saying to express his disagreement with vincent.
Vincent said "it's irritating when something like a door or a building is reachable but have no purpose."
Brethen said "it's not when it's made to emphasize immersion or add gameplay. Making sure that every reachable buildings or doors have purpose would just make none-sense places with nothing interesting to add."
It's just explaining to Vincent that he should not feel that frustrated when he sees building he can't get in or doors he can't open, because Brethren is an author and Vincent isn't, such a discussion can be done to explain why we, authors, add in our levels some buildings and doors you can't visit/open. And the reason is "because we need them to have a purpose in matter of gameplay or lore depending on the situation" and also because we can't make endless level and we can't make map limited with walls only, else the mission will be ugly or boring and also large for nothing.
By comparing Lady Rowena's mission and Ambush, you're saying the point of Brethren : in Ambush, the level designer made insides that add nothing interesting and doing more would just have make it even more boring. Rowena has added purposes and content so it becomes good, but she didn't made all the doors of the level openable nor all the buildings visitable because it's pointless to make a map telling more than it can nor adding content that adds actually nothing. Any author knows there's a limit in the world you're creating and this limit should be displayed with fake doors or fake buildings so the world become coherent.
Now the debate has been explained and the point are clear, you can wipe this salt from your lips and also express your opinion in a more friendly way.
...or just going back to the thread like you pointed it out instead of carrying on the debate....
vincentlancon on 22/1/2021 at 04:11
I'm not saying you can't have non functional doors, windows, etc... if it is just there to provide filler for lane after lane of non functioning streets or halls... is off putting. A city full of buildings with only 3 or 4 actual functioning buildings.... is not fun. This completely excludes functional buildings you have to find other ways in... I am just saying using a lot of useless filler is bad...not fun... call it what you want.
uncadonego on 22/1/2021 at 19:07
Quote Posted by vincentlancon
I'm not saying you can't have non functional doors, windows, etc... if it is just there to provide filler for lane after lane of non functioning streets or halls... is off putting. A city full of buildings with only 3 or 4 actual functioning buildings.... is not fun. This completely excludes functional buildings you have to find other ways in... I am just saying using a lot of useless filler is bad...not fun... call it what you want.
Okay, then say that in the first place....
Quote Posted by vincentlancon
If you can reach it physically it needs to be a part of the functioning world.... background things you can't reach are fine.. but having things in your actual world that have zero function other than to give filler and space is poor level design.
Because that's not what you said here...
vincentlancon on 23/1/2021 at 08:08
Sure it is... maybe you misunderstood. I stand by non functioning buildings is a poor design choice simply there to create the illusion of a level bigger than it is and needs to be. You may think otherwise and that's fine.... I like fully fleshed out worlds, as much as possible.
uncadonego on 23/1/2021 at 10:18
Quote Posted by vincentlancon
Sure it is... maybe you misunderstood.
Bullshit
