RavynousHunter on 25/3/2009 at 15:55
Quote Posted by ManicMan
But the 'truth is hidden from the unworthy' is far from saying 'only very skilled users can see the truth'.
Not exactly; as you said, not much in the Thief universe can be taken at face value. In the "olden days," the words unworthy and unskilled were, in many cases, synonymous. The writer may simply be trying to be more dramatic than simply writing "you need the proper skill." Dramatism is rather common among fantasy mystics, Necromancers included.
Also, zombies are most likely magical, as Holy Water is almost specifically meant to combat them; and Holy Water is inherently magical, being blessed by the Builder himself. Also, we
are dealing with a fantasy (think D&D) universe, zombies (and by extension all undead) are almost invariably created through either direct magical means or some mystical cause such as the desecration of one's grave, such as the case with the Haunts.
ManicMan on 25/3/2009 at 16:29
D&D has a lot to answer for, making every little kid an 'expert' on monsters ¬_¬ (I'm a Hero Quest guy anyway.. and even that i would never use as a base). Fantasy worlds have been around alot longer.. anyway, don't want to get stuck on that point for the next few posts...
I will accept that Holy water seams to have some form of magically power, but Flash Bombs don't. Fire Arrows don't. Both of them can kill Zombies.. Magic can kill Garrett. Just because Magic can kill a creature, doesn't make it a magical creature. Holy Water also has alot more uses then just killing the undead. It's prime reason is for blessing things, such as People, Holy items etc. .
Garrett mostly uses it for fighting the undead because he needs it only for that reason, yet he has used it for blessing once (Return to the Cathedral), it appears to be used to bless the weapons of the Hammers, as they can easily smash up a Zombies.
Herr_Garrett on 26/3/2009 at 07:10
Quote Posted by ManicMan
D&D has a lot to answer for
...
Garrett mostly uses it for fighting the undead because he needs it only for that reason, yet he has used it for blessing once (Return to the Cathedral), it appears to be used to bless the weapons of the Hammers, as they can easily smash up a Zombies.
No, 'tis because the undead are only hurt by smashing/crushing damage. Garrett with his puny sword deals maybe 1d5 slashing/piercing damage, which is worth less than a fart when up against undead. :cheeky:
Constantine's Sowrd is obviously at least a +5 weapon.
Speaking of D&D.
Anyway, the Hammerites really can't kill undead because of their hammers being blessed. Notice, when a Hammer strikes a zombie or an Haunt, they don't have the dust/ligh-flowing-upwards animation.
jtr7 on 26/3/2009 at 07:30
In the context of the Pagan Shaman using the Necormancer's Wand to plague the Hammerites of Ft. Ironwood with undead:
m14c0203: ...what choice have we, Brother Rivet? The undead return so quickly after we smite them...
And in general, the Hammers work some of their prisoners to death only to have them become undead. This might explain Cragscleft and the Bonehoard, too. Remember the zombies in the cells:
HIprisoners: "We didst take another pagan today. The wretch had no dignity; his screams didst summon forth a crowd of gawking onlookers as he wast carried inside. But I didst note the flower peddler nearby, that she showed not vacant curiosity but a more intent concern. I shalt have her taken and put to the question in the next sweep. Mine thoughts turn again upon the prisoners. 'Tis proper they be put to work, but canst still be proper to work them past the point of honest effort, that they die of the labor, and rise as the accurst undead? Still, hadst they been faithful, 'twould never have come to such a pass."
ManicMan on 26/3/2009 at 07:47
Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett
Anyway, the Hammerites really can't kill undead because of their hammers being blessed. Notice, when a Hammer strikes a zombie or an Haunt, they don't have the dust/ligh-flowing-upwards animation.
They do kill the undead.. the undead blow up (or at lest did in cragscleft in gold), but i am willing to say it's just cause how powerful there hammers are ^_^
Meisterdieb on 26/3/2009 at 15:34
Quote Posted by ManicMan
Now, since we are dealing with a world where the 'true' meanings of words aren't the same as in the real world (for example, their meaning of Zombie) then we can't take the word 'Necromancer' at face value (It means a person who can tell the future by conversing with the dead) so it is possible a Thief Necromancer can create zombies and such like, However, we don't ever see this action in-game.
Despite the fact that in RL necromanc only means "Divination involving the dead or death", in most (if not all) fantasy worlds (be they games or books or films) necromancy includes creating/summoning/controlling the undead in some way or another (Generally, the more magic the world has, the more a necromancer can do).
We don't have to take anything at face value or without explanation. The game files in "Mages Tower" clearly indicate that necromancy includes reanimating corpses.
Quote Posted by ManicMan
The Book is shown to Summon two undead zombies. It is possible it is creating them, but you would need a corpse to bring back to life...
I would rephrase that. Garrett summons the zombies by reading the book. Whether Garrett is a magic-user, or whether the book acts as a focus is secondary. (And the whole thing is a nod to "Evil Dead 3 so...). BUT: only when someone (uninitated) reads the book, do the zombies appear (I'm also not quite sure if the zombies aren't simply a trap for anyone not allowed to use the book?)
Quote Posted by ManicMan
Summoning a creature and creating one are two different things. Neither the Book of Ash nor the Necromancer Azaran are shown as being able to create the undead. Reanimation might lead to the undead but can be done in a number of ways BEFORE the use of Magic
I think from the way the mages talk about him and from his tower, we can safely say that he wasn't trying to reanimate them for THEIR sake. And it certainly wasn't the good kind of reanimation but zombiefication or some pre-step (since we know that the Mages oppose those).
Quote Posted by ManicMan
I will accept that Holy water seams to have some form of magically power, but Flash Bombs don't. Fire Arrows don't.
All the elemental arrows are magical. It might be a naturally ocurring thing, but they aren't mundane.
Quote Posted by ManicMan
Just because Magic can kill a creature, doesn't make it a magical creature.
True, but if normal means don't kill something, than it must be magical.
How do you know something is magic?
It doesn't have to be a magic item or a spell; if something comes to be by magical means then it can be considered as such as well. (Constantine's sword, the spells by the priests, the summoned air elementals of the mages)
Anything that doesn't belong in a natural/biological environment is very likely to be magical. We know that the humans (pagans, Nobles etc) procreate, eat, sleep like we would expect them to. That also seems to be the case (implicitely at least) with all their wildlife (burricks, Kurshok et al). We have "basically" (as in the basis for) a normal world.
Enter the magic and the gods:
We have the Trickster's beasts who either seem to live in the Maw or are created there by the Trickster himself (Bugbeasts, Apebeast, etc)
Not sure if the Will'o'wisps are "natural" occurring or summoned by the pagans; they seem magical enough (given their total invulnerability).
And we have the undead: we have the Eye and the necromancer's wand who both seem to be able to create/summon undead.
We have the undead in places like the Bonehoard where they seem to be animated by no direct force. Maybe the magical background radiation is enough to create undead if the burial grounds are not sufficently blessed (=shielded).
Quote Posted by ManicMan
Holy Water also has alot more uses then just killing the undead. It's prime reason is for blessing things, such as People, Holy items etc. .
Quote Posted by ManicMan
Garrett mostly uses it for fighting the undead because he needs it only for that reason, yet he has used it for blessing once
How many uses there are for holy water or that Garrett only does certain things with it, has no bearing on whether holy water is magical or not.
I must be - otherwise simply using plain water arrows would be enough.
Strangely - and that's the weak point here- water arrows, which should be considered magical, are not enough to destroy the undead. :erm:
It could be that the game designers simply didn't think as far as fans are wont to. (most likely)
Or it could simply be the "wrong" magic - maybe dark (necromantic) magic needs light magic to cancel out (or light flashbombs :cheeky:)
ManicMan on 26/3/2009 at 16:43
Quote Posted by Meisterdieb
Despite the fact that in RL necromanc only means "Divination involving the dead or death", in most (if not all) fantasy worlds (be they games or books or films) necromancy includes creating/summoning/controlling the undead in some way or another (Generally, the more magic the world has, the more a necromancer can do).
We don't have to take anything at face value or without explanation. The game files in "Mages Tower" clearly indicate that necromancy includes reanimating corpses.
Mote point. saying 'Well, overs do it so it must be true for thief' is something you shouldn't do and i have learnt NOT to do.. Therefore it is a completely mote point.
Quote Posted by Meisterdieb
I would rephrase that. Garrett summons the zombies by reading the book. Whether Garrett is a magic-user, or whether the book acts as a focus is secondary. (And the whole thing is a nod to "Evil Dead 3 so...). BUT: only when someone (uninitated) reads the book, do the zombies appear (I'm also not quite sure if the zombies aren't simply a trap for anyone not allowed to use the book?) I think from the way the mages talk about him and from his tower, we can safely say that he wasn't trying to reanimate them for THEIR sake. And it certainly wasn't the good kind of reanimation but zombiefication or some pre-step (since we know that the Mages oppose those).
okay, i will accept that (apart from Evil Dead 3.. no such film.. It was 'Army of Darkness: the Medievil Dead'.. That's like saying there was a film called 'Rambo' when the closet was 'First Blood Part 2: Rambo). We don't know it's zombiefication. You can say it is hinted but there are far worst creatures he could be turning them into (though we have no proof that Haunts and such are related that much) and really, if it was a plain zombie, they would probably say 'Zombie'.. we can debate that.. No easy answer since it SEAMS that the reanimation is zombie making but we can't know for sure.
Quote Posted by Meisterdieb
All the elemental arrows are magical. It might be a naturally ocurring thing, but they aren't mundane.
How are they magic? I don't remember any comments on them being magic.. As the Thief Gold Manual says, The Water Cystral makes Water Arrows (Basically by added it to a tip of the arrow. Don't ask about why you don't lost a broad head arrow to get one. Maybe Garrett just has a lot of 'arrow sticks' we don't know about. How are they not Mundane or anything? we get Crystals like this in real life (yes, we do! Not quite taken to such extremes but a Enhydro Crystal (which is natural) contains water bubbles)
Quote Posted by Meisterdieb
True, but if normal means don't kill something, than it must be magical.
....So, if someone is put in the electric chair BUT lives! then they must be magical? sorry, i don't quite understand this bit...
Quote Posted by Meisterdieb
How many uses there are for holy water or that Garrett only does certain things with it, has no bearing on whether holy water is magical or not.
Sorry, but read my posts...RavynousHunter said
Quote:
Also, zombies are most likely magical, as Holy Water is almost specifically meant to combat them; and Holy Water is inherently magical, being blessed by the Builder himself.
I said that it wasn't anywhere near "almost specifically meant to combat [zombies]". I didn't say it wasn't magical. In fact, i said:
Quote:
I will accept that Holy water seams to have some form of magically power
which appears to be a spelling mistake, like your 'than' instead of 'then', and i meant magical not magically. So i said I'll accept is is magic.
RavynousHunter on 26/3/2009 at 21:30
Quote:
Mote point. saying 'Well, overs do it so it must be true for thief' is something you shouldn't do and i have learnt NOT to do.. Therefore it is a completely mote point.
True, however, games tend to have many elements in common, especially fantasy games. If something seems fantastical or mystical, more times than not, it's source is some form of magic, be it intentional or not.
Quote:
How are they magic?
They are most likely magical in nature, considering they seem to spawn spontaneously in areas where their particular element is concentrated, such as sewers for Water crystals, Torches for Fire crystals, and moss patches for Earth crystals (moss arrows). When something spawns spontaneously in fantasy, its usually because of magic. However, one could, in theory, make a mundane version of Fire and Water arrows, the mechanisms of which I won't go into right now.
Quote:
....So, if someone is put in the electric chair BUT lives! then they must be magical? sorry, i don't quite understand this bit...
He means in the context of a fantasy universe, which is the context you have to use when discussing the inner mechanisms of strange things in Thief.
ManicMan on 26/3/2009 at 22:43
I see your point but it doesn't really confirm to most of the fantasy universe's I'm use it. I'm use to Magic Classes and Sub-type (White Magic= Healing, Black Magic = Power from Demon dimensions, Earth Magic = Power from the ground, High Magic = Power from the sky/gods etc) and the more advance the spell, the more complex the way to use it (for example, a basic spell like a light ball could be a wave of the hand, but a more advance one like a Spirit Wrack would require a small chant) Also, used to technology's use in magic (like Power Boosters etc).
Also, there are alot of good places where people talk about the 'real side' to magic. As i have said, there are crystals in real life that have water inside. Using this kind of thing (though taken to extreme) I always figured that Water Crystals were bits of water trapped in a small crystal frame created by the odd bits of rock, dust etc that flow in the water. The same way stalagmites are formed, but in thine amounts so that when they hit a hard object (like a wall) the crystal shell brakes, letting out the small amount of water. This seams to be confirmed by the look of the Crystals, the sound effect and the way they are used. Apart from taking a few points to extremes (After all, how good would the game be if Garrett got tired from walking around so much, or could brake his leg so you had to move much slower for the rest of the game. For a game to work, a number of factors are taken to extremes, even in the game 'Trespasser' which is said to be the most realistic game ever made (mostly in the game play))
Where was I? Ah, so, just cause it is taken to them extremes, why should it be magic and not just how the world works? Magic is just a term to explain things that we cannot explain. How many things do we have these days that would seam like magic only 50 years back? Many aspects of the thief world may seam like magic to us, but does it have to be labeled as such?
And are the crystals spontaneous? I have only seen the crystals re-appear in fan missions. Who is to say some of them haven't been there for years? (well.. can't say that about fires but you will be amazed as how fast you can create coal in a good fire)
RavynousHunter on 27/3/2009 at 00:31
Yes, the crystals re-create themselves in presence of high concentrations of their accompanying element re Thief DS. You're forgetting one thing though, magic is how the Thief world works.
Also, it seems that you're used to the Final Fantasy sort of magic; that's usually not how magic is handled in western (primarily American) games. The line between "light" and "dark" magic is somewhat hazy; good people can use evil spells, and evil people can use good spells, they just usually aren't as good as they are in their native alignment.
If you want more info on how magic works in this case, I'd go to your local library or bookstore and take a gander at the D&D Player's Handbook, 3.5 version, not 4th Edition. Also, if you really want to get into the pure(r) good/evil magic, I'd take a look at the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds.
