Herr_Garrett on 27/3/2009 at 06:56
Quote:
Originall yposted by ManicManI see your point but it doesn't really confirm to most of the fantasy universe's I'm use it. I'm use to Magic Classes and Sub-type (White Magic= Healing, Black Magic = Power from Demon dimensions, Earth Magic = Power from the ground, High Magic = Power from the sky/gods etc) and the more advance the spell, the more complex the way to use it (for example, a basic spell like a light ball could be a wave of the hand, but a more advance one like a Spirit Wrack would require a small chant) Also, used to technology's use in magic (like Power Boosters etc).
Also, there are alot of good places where people talk about the 'real side' to magic. As i have said, there are crystals in real life that have water inside. Using this kind of thing (though taken to extreme) I always figured that Water Crystals were bits of water trapped in a small crystal frame created by the odd bits of rock, dust etc that flow in the water. The same way stalagmites are formed, but in thine amounts so that when they hit a hard object (like a wall) the crystal shell brakes, letting out the small amount of water. This seams to be confirmed by the look of the Crystals, the sound effect and the way they are used. Apart from taking a few points to extremes (After all, how good would the game be if Garrett got tired from walking around so much, or could brake his leg so you had to move much slower for the rest of the game. For a game to work, a number of factors are taken to extremes, even in the game 'Trespasser' which is said to be the most realistic game ever made (mostly in the game play))
Where was I? Ah, so, just cause it is taken to them extremes, why should it be magic and not just how the world works? Magic is just a term to explain things that we cannot explain. How many things do we have these days that would seam like magic only 50 years back? Many aspects of the thief world may seam like magic to us, but does it have to be labeled as such?
And are the crystals spontaneous? I have only seen the crystals re-appear in fan missions. Who is to say some of them haven't been there for years? (well.. can't say that about fires but you will be amazed as how fast you can create coal in a good fire)
Quote Posted by RavynousHunter
Yes, the crystals re-create themselves in presence of high concentrations of their accompanying element re Thief DS. You're forgetting one thing though, magic
is how the Thief world works.
Also, it seems that you're used to the Final Fantasy sort of magic; that's usually
not how magic is handled in western (primarily American) games. The line between "light" and "dark" magic is somewhat hazy; good people can use evil spells, and evil people can use good spells, they just usually aren't as good as they are in their native alignment.
If you want more info on how magic works in this case, I'd go to your local library or bookstore and take a gander at the D&D Player's Handbook, 3.5 version, not 4th Edition. Also, if you really want to get into the pure(r) good/evil magic, I'd take a look at the
Book of Vile Darkness and the
Book of Exalted Deeds.
Agreed. D&D
does have a lot to answer for, as you said, ManicMan; most fantasy stuff is built on that, with but a few notable and honourable exceptions. I'm not saying that D&D is bad - just that it is overly used.
Yes, the Thiefverse seems to be primarily running on magic, just as our world runs on physics. Magic in the first case can be a pretty oblique and confusing thing, with no clear distinction between good and evil - just as you can't clearly decide whether, say, electricity is good. 'Tis all a matter of opinion.
'Magic' is not something you cannot explain; it is something that does not conform with the world as we know it. The two are not the same at all. While modern computers indeed could have appeared magical to a 17th century man, with their method and technology explained, he could/should have understood it. Whereas you can never-ever explain creating matter from nothing (not
the Creation, but on a smaller scale) but with magic. This is just one instance. In fact, this is the modern meaning of magic: an act/power/level/plane etc., to which the laws normally governing the physical reality apply not. Of course, there are other laws in magic, but those are of its own.
And then, of course, there is the whole question whether magic does exist in
our universe...
jtr7 on 27/3/2009 at 07:26
Another angle rarely considered:
If I write a story and purposely use magic to remove restrictions on creative expression and exploration, calling it "fantasy" up front, and using the term "magic" many times, and populating my made-up world with classic fantasy character-types, and using even more terms with specific fantasy connotations...why the hell would anybody feel they need to angrily force a scientific explanation on it? If my story doesn't hide the fact that I intend to use "magic" as an excuse for things, and I go through the trouble of creating rules for how the magic works--shared with the reader or not--why is it at all appropriate for anybody to insist on non-existent scientific explanation, and to roll their eyes as they make a huge generalization about what they perceive to be a mere excuse to "get away with" something? Give me taffin' break.:laff::laff::laff:
RavynousHunter on 27/3/2009 at 19:55
Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett
And then, of course, there is the whole question whether magic does exist in
our universe...
And we're not going into that. Are we? :eww:
Meisterdieb on 27/3/2009 at 20:02
Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett
Agreed. D&D
does have a lot to answer for, as you said, ManicMan; most fantasy stuff is built on that, with but a few notable and honourable exceptions. I'm not saying that D&D is bad - just that it is overly used.
Well, it certainly has had (and still does have) immense influence on the fantasy, though I wouldn't go so far as to say that "most fantasy stuff" is baded on D&D (in whichever incarnation). On the contrary, D&D took many examples from fantasy novels and converted them into rules.
Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett
Yes, the Thiefverse seems to be primarily running on magic, just as our world runs on physics.
Well, they have the "magic forces" in addition to some/most of our normal, natural laws.
Back to the Servants:
I posted before that I cannot imagine that Karras -how crazy he might be- would stoop to using undead as part of his plan. That's just my opinion, but I'd think that would upset even his skewered world-view.
Another point would be that - again only IMHO since there isn't any in-game proof and so we're just guessing or inferring- I don't think putting a helmet on a zombie would do anything but enraging the zombie.
From what we see of zombies in the games, they don't appear to have any intelligence/logic/reasoing left.
So, even if you have this "imposing" voice ordering it around... do you really think a zombie would obey these orders or even comprehend his situation?
While it certainly would look funny (reminds me of that FM where you have a guard running around with a bucket on his head), I don't think zombies would make such great gardeners as the couple in Angelwatch expects.:joke:
jtr7 on 27/3/2009 at 20:18
For one thing, a zombie was just a dead, decaying corpse, not freshly dead, alchemically treated, or treated with any kind of care to preserve any aspect. What makes a zombie rise is often uncontrolled necromantic energies (or some incredible parasitic organism), though sometimes initiated by a necromancer, and may not occur for days, weeks, months, after the death. And there is technology we are never privy to going on here that had the Mechanists in awe, which Karras (or some unnamed follower) unlocked and got working in this way.
The Masks don't override the Slaves' perceptions and thoughts about their situation. Their voluntary motor control is primarily what is taken from them. If it's hypnotism, it's the whacky unscientific kind, as well.
Once again, there are MANY kinds of undeath and examples of natural and controlled necromancy in Thief.
massimilianogoi on 27/3/2009 at 23:25
Quote Posted by jtr7
The Masks don't override the Slaves' perceptions and thoughts about their situation. Their voluntary motor control is primarily what is taken from them. If it's hypnotism, it's the whacky unscientific kind, as well.
Why?? As far as I know, there's many hypnotic drugs that changes completely the willing of a person. They could be under the constant effect of a drug, even if this doesn't explicate why they are conscious of their situation of slavery.
jtr7 on 28/3/2009 at 00:05
Drugged is something else, hypnotism is intense, clear, focus and the participant is willing to be in that state and can prevent it. A person cannot be hypnotized and not know it. A hypnotised person would not be complaining about the cold, weeping, and asking to die, while doing fantastic cooking and cleaning, totally unable to stop themselves or throw themselves out a high window. Even if a person were hypnotized and told to believe they were master chefs, they would not have the requisite cooking skills without training or enough observation to do it. If these street-people used to work in Nobles' kitchens, then they'd have a chance. If we say this is hypnotism it would have to be old whacky Hollywood-style.
A drug cannot give you skills and training and force you to work that hard without a breakdown, unless we make up something else with little evidence and say they have a healing potion treatment. They don't sound drugged, and those drugs only make a person more suggestible, and are all forms of barbiturates, depressants, and have anesthetic effects, not leaving an aware person unable to fight back yet having all the knowledge and energy necessary to do the task. We would have to make up something completely new than what the games show, and I think we should stick with what is actually there and work from that.
Alchemy, again? Whatever was in those vats they were steeping in? Maybe the soaked wrappings shrink dry onto them and continue to introduce drugs into their system like a transdermal drug patch? :D
massimilianogoi on 28/3/2009 at 03:11
Quote Posted by jtr7
A drug cannot give you skills and training and force you to work that hard without a breakdown...
I didn't though about that... Yeah. t'is true!
Solabusca on 28/3/2009 at 03:33
Side thought for a moment - Jason, quick check - does anyone else comment on the Servant-speech? Or is it just what we, as Garrett, hear? (I have vague recollections of someone else commenting on it, but hope that I'm wrong...)
Because if it's the latter, a strong case can be made for something similar to what we see in TDS - Garrett being able to 'hear' their thoughts, which also explains the odd quality of their voice.
Which opens up a whole new kettle of fish.
jtr7 on 28/3/2009 at 04:01
From here:
(
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1834010#post1834010)
That's something I want to discover the truth about, and see it in action, 'cause I never saw a message being delivered but only the typical run to where a guard is stationed and the running up to him/her was enough to put them on alert.
That unused conversation between the Mech Priest and the Servant in
Masks had the Priest oblivious to the complaints of the Servant, but acting like it was responding appropriately. It was either the Priest playing cruelly, or he really didn't hear what Garrett was. Since it's unused, we will never know why it was removed.
Presumably, the two choices for the responses would've been played at random:
Quote:
mc21203A: "Ahh, Child...didst not hear thee. Thou art so silent I thought I was alone."
ms11203B = ms1a0wh5 or ms1a0wh7: "Let me go. Let me go." and/or "Let me out. Let me go free."
mc21203C: "So, thou likest my new dwelling as well. 'Twas high time I replaced that old dotard, Norell. There was naught he could do for these people, save lead them into the muck that mires his own mind. That senile old fool doth not realize...his time of faith is over."
ms11203D = ms1a0wh1 or ms1a0wh2: "Help me. Please help me." or "Someone free me, I beg you. Free me."
mc21203E: "Following Lord Karras, 'twas so easy to lure Gervaisius with choice baubles. Soon his exhibition will introduce more nobility to the wonders of our faith. They shalt wander through halls rendered safe by our craft, and be served by such docile helpers as thee. They shall gaze upon the wonders of fallen civilizations, and watch as we make it an attainable reality. How can they resist?
ms11203F = ms1a0whA or ms1a0whC: "Why do you do this to me? Why do you do this to me?" or "So cold. So very cold."
mc21203G: "Meanwhile, I will attend to Norell's former flock. 'Twas some effort, bending Gervaisius to our will, but with Steward Duma's help, and the right temptation, 'twas not that difficult."
ms11203H = ms1a0whB: "Someone...someone kill me."
mc21203I: "Goodnight, Child. Leave me to my preparation. Return to thy duties."
And yeah, the telepathy and the other coincidental connections with the glyph-modified Keeper Enforcers (acquired Precursor knowledge, brass masks, hidden eyes, monotone speech, single purpose of mind, not quite human anymore) occurred to me as something that would be creepy if it was intentional. If Garrett was hearing the Slaves' thoughts then it would be a premonition, and may have something to do with how The Eye speaks, and Garrett becoming attuned to it through his blood-sacrifice, becoming The One, and the events of those final nine days.
