massimilianogoi on 23/3/2009 at 18:18
Quote Posted by Jah
The servants do seem to have some level of consciousness and awareness of their condition, as evidenced by the fact that they express feelings of pain and suffering. The exact nature of their suffering is hard to tell - do they feel actual physical pain, or just mental suffering from the fact that they've been turned into marionettes without a free will of their own, with someone else controlling their movements and actions? We also don't know for certain how absolute the Mechanists' "mind control" over the servants is: Are they incapable of even thinking about disobeying orders or acting independently, or are they simply restrained from saying or doing anything their masters don't want them to, even if they have the desire and intention? The whimpering and the "thank you" sigh when they're killed would suggest the latter.
Quote en plein
I guess however that's better the second one: "or just mental suffering from the fact that they've been turned into marionettes without a free will of their own, with someone else controlling their movements and actions?"
I could agree with the hypotesi of a kind of hypnotism.
ManicMan on 23/3/2009 at 20:21
Quote Posted by massimilianogoi
Hmmm... this couldn't be just simply advising someone else running to him?
erm... can't quite see the idea behind that... I can just picture how many new servants would need to be made if they went round bossing everyone else about like that.. As other have said, it is kinda instructions to the 'host', as is very clear from the other lines.
Gambit on 24/3/2009 at 03:31
I´m now going to a weeeeeird tangent here...
But what if death magic is directly related to mind puppetry?
At TDP we see a lot of zombies. Death magic was in use here. But most of them are not being manipulated by a direct master, so they are free. Free in the sense of using their brains for the most basic functions.
At TMA we see the servants. Same concept but the masks could not only raise the dead but also control their minds. Somehow they are less rotten than zombies. Their undead bodies don´t stink and their brain manages to maintain some basic memories and speech. But they suffer from lack of free will, commanded by Karras´ programming.
At TDS there are the puppets. These are a bit more complex. Crazy psychos brough from the dead because of the memories of a dark building. They are also less rotten from the zombies counterpart, although their brain looks like totally fried. They might have a glint of their memories, but they are powerless to the cradle´s endless torture. They´re now just puppets.
The better case would be the ghosts. Since they are free of any material shackles such as a rotten brain they can retain all their memories - but not all their free will. Something still keeps then at this plane of existence.
Not only that but death magic could also grant sentience to inanimate beings. When the cradle witnessed great evil it grew a conscience. Maybe the volcanic disaster was the Lost City´s anger. Maybe even the City is alive.
Maybe there is precendence for human made disaster = place takes it´s revenge and start puppeting everyone. Maybe the way the City could control people was though the book of fate. Luckily Garrett could unlock it and everybody is now free...
Herr_Garrett on 24/3/2009 at 08:03
Still on the "what could have been removed to make room for the Cultivator" note: maybe the Mechanists conducted lobotomy on the poor guys?
Back in the 19th century, lobotomy was "not so advanced" as these days, i.e. they carved off any part of the brain which looked pink and wobbly. And this "treatment" often left the patients incapable of rationing, or bereft or initiative, or as mindless machines who only ate, drank, shat etc. when told to.
Lobotomy was known and practiced in the City; that we know from DS. Maybe Karras came up with a more efficient and precise surgeoning technique, developed enough to cut out only the bits he needed/didn't need? And after removing those parts, they easily could have installed a chip or something like that - they could connect mechanical things to brain, as seen in Garrett's eye.
I do not agree with the supposition that they needed to eat or drink. That'd imply that they need to excrete, too, which could have been difficult in all wrapped up like that. The easiest solution of their nutrition would be by magic.
ManicMan on 24/3/2009 at 08:10
mmm.. but there is no sign that zombies are anything to do with any form of Magic. There is no confirmed proof that Servants are dead, As for the cradle... what 'Great Evil' as the Hag just visited, like she has done to alot of places.
also, do Ghosts remember everything? if they did, I'm sure alot of them would act a little different to what they do. For example, wouldn't that attack Zombies and Haunts. Of course, the ghosts that don't fight also seam to sometimes have memory problems... though that might be a weakness of their human lives, we don't know.
massimilianogoi on 24/3/2009 at 09:01
Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett
Still on the "what could have been removed to make room for the Cultivator" note: maybe the Mechanists conducted lobotomy on the poor guys?
Back in the 19th century, lobotomy was "not so advanced" as these days, i.e. they carved off any part of the brain which looked pink and wobbly. And this "treatment"
often left the patients incapable of rationing, or bereft or initiative, or as mindless machines who only ate, drank, shat etc. when told to.
Lobotomy was known and practiced in the City; that we know from DS. Maybe Karras came up with a more efficient and precise surgeoning technique, developed enough to cut out only the bits he needed/didn't need? And after removing those parts, they easily could have installed a chip or something like that - they could connect mechanical things to brain, as seen in Garrett's eye.
Heh! This could be a nice part! I guess we're approaching to the real position...
If facts, this could explain also the falling unconscious when they are/were blackjacked. If they are/were zombies, this couldn't happen.
However, if they were lobotomized they would not suffer for their position, because they neither could realize it. I doubt those 19th century patiens suffered for their condition (they are compared to "machines", unable to be "compos mentis").
Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett
I do not agree with the supposition that they needed to eat or drink. That'd imply that they need to excrete, too, which could have been difficult in all wrapped up like that...
So what's the problem? We don't know if that was just a costume, then equiped with some zip or button..
Now it comes again in mind the words of Karras (for how many falses could they be): "A
living worker..." ... So, in 90% of probabilities they weren't dead, then neither zombies or mummies.
massimilianogoi on 24/3/2009 at 09:03
Quote Posted by ManicMan
mmm.. but there is no sign that zombies are anything to do with any form of Magic. There is no confirmed proof that Servants are dead, As for the cradle... what 'Great Evil' as the Hag just visited, like she has done to alot of places.
Me too I thought the Hag performed some spell to make more safe her/its hiding place.
ManicMan on 24/3/2009 at 10:06
could be.. though did she hid there? her 'Lair' wasn't far away really and there was only 1 confirmed sighting/killing she did there.
Anyway, back to the servants at hand... on the outfit idea, anyone else notice that most outfits aren't practical? I would guess most of there outfits were just for show. We know the masks themselves are based on one of the designs used my one of the precursor races (yes, i know I'm using the real-world meaning of the word 'precursor' but again, why couldn't there be more then one), but there is no sign that the masks themselves had any power other then being masks. The rest of the head gear seams the same style used by the mechs for most things (like there diving helmets) and seamed to have no real link to the precursors.
jtr7 on 24/3/2009 at 13:39
The helmets had no link to the Precursors, it was the faces.
And I'd like to hear fun or meaningful excuses for things that don't just sound lame and imagination-less, even though it's possible the artists had no frikkin' clue why they were going through the trouble to add so much meaningless detail. :laff:
:p
Lots of good stuff in this thread, don't crap out now.
The Servants were quite lucid and aware of their plight, but could not act of their own will. They were, in essence, puppets. In fact, all three games use that concept in different ways.
To dismiss the VAST amount of Necromancy in the games is only acceptable as a thought experiment, but is just incorrect.
As for the Hag...Dyan, Priestess of Wood, tried to keep the "abomination's" lair closed off, and Garrett had to acquire Dyan's Amulet to access the Pumphouse and lower the water in the canal. So, it's really Dyan protecting people from going into the Hag's lair, and the statues protect the lair from intruders.
The Cradle became sentient, not just through the Hag's one-time killing there, but through the misery and despair of all the psychotic patients, and the torturous treatments, the terror of the children, the serial killings, and so on.
We don't know what it was Karras all found in Karath-Din, but he stated, and it was confirmed by Cavador, that the Precursor technology was wondrous, and hard to comprehend. The Keepers were fascinated and mentioned the height of that civilization before the fall of Karath-Din. The tourists were in awe, and the scholar, too.
ManicMan on 24/3/2009 at 15:17
Quote:
To dismiss the VAST amount of Necromancy in the games is only acceptable as a thought experiment, but is just incorrect.
okay, i missed something there.. sorry ^_^;
Quote:
As for the Hag...Dyan, Priestess of Wood, tried to keep the "abomination's" lair closed off, and Garrett had to acquire Dyan's Amulet to access the Pumphouse and lower the water in the canal. So, it's really Dyan protecting people from going into the Hag's lair, and the statues protect the lair from intruders.
The Hag clearly had another way in because of the stuff in there. It was too up to date. But again, this is beside the point of this topic
