witherflower on 25/12/2009 at 11:26
I've just come back from trying out The Dark Mod. And it's very impressing, indeed. A far better feel than Deadly Shadows imo.
However, it still left me wondering where that thief atmosphere had gone. And I just can't put my finger on what it is.
What is it with the original thiefs that just can't seem to be replicated by any other engine? Or should I say; how should one utilize a modern engine to emulate the original feel.
Your thoughts?
Irenices on 25/12/2009 at 14:09
Because you have fond memories of thief 1 and 2 that you subconsciously wont let anything live up to.
witherflower on 25/12/2009 at 14:13
@Melan: Nice screens, Melan. And I would say they look rather thiefy. However, something is missing. And that's what frustrates me. I can't figure out why. Is it simply a psychological thing, where the first is always the best no matter what? Or is it the low-polygonal other worldly feel and look. Is it the ambient sounds along with the imagery? Is it the vision of the original team behind T1/T2 that oozes out of the thief world and into me (at least, but I suspect others feel the same way)?
The originals feel different... darker, somehow- but not visually darker. Like I said before, More otherworldy. And even though, T3 and TDM are far more detailed worlds, the originals still felt more vast, mysterious and non-linear to me. Technology moves on, and so must the thief universe if it's to expand. It won't be long before dromed simply will refuse to run on modern hardware. So, how can these things be replicated?
I simply don't know...
It's the same thing with the original Tomb Raiders vs. the new releases. Not the same at all. And I would think a lot of other games as well.
witherflower on 25/12/2009 at 14:21
Quote Posted by Irenices
Because you have fond memories of thief 1 and 2 that you subconsciously wont let anything live up to.
It is possible. And the thought has struck me. But I don't think that's it. The answer is somewhere within those games. And when found, it shall be praised and handled with utmost care for it belongs in a museum:)
jtr7 on 25/12/2009 at 14:42
They are a bit too monochrome and the colors and contrast are not rich and varied enough, and too many textures are too bump-mappy. The images do have a familiarity, and are a good representation of evolving the Dark Engine Thief games forward, but it's trying, perhaps, to be too real in blandness of color and contrast, and having texture upon texture. Also, there shouldn't be a need to make all arches round all the time, and all octagonal or decagonal geometry should not always be replaced with smooth arcs.
Irenices: Nope. Some changes are simply a fundamental departure from the cold facts. It's like watching the Simpson's in the traditional hand-drawn 2D, and then watching the Simpson's rendered in 3D CGI. Sorry, although the CGI can allow things the hand-drawn cannot, the hand-drawn is superior. It's like building with Legos, and then building with wood and glue and a dremel. One may allow more realism and finer detail, but it's a fundamental departure. This is aside from sentimentality and preference, but then adding those in as another set of factors.
It also needs to be pointed out that the less defined and detailed the game-world is--like the set of a theater play production--the more the imagination happily fills in and can create a stronger and more personal visceral experience. The more detail is added, the less the imagination will fill in, and either seek something elsewhere (creating a significantly different experience for better or worse, or just...different), or the imagination will not be exercised as much and create a shallow experience.
witherflower on 25/12/2009 at 15:06
Quote Posted by jtr7
It also needs to be pointed out that the less defined and detailed the game-world is--like the set of a theater play production--the more the imagination happily fills in and can create a stronger and more personal visceral experience. The more detail is added, the less the imagination will fill in, and either seek something elsewhere (creating a significantly different experience for better or worse, or just...different), or the imagination will not be exercised as much and create a shallow experience.
A very good point:thumb:
But a vast number of FMs have a lot more detail than the OMs, but still have a strong thief atmosphere. Where to draw the line, before it becomes TOO detailed?
Beleg Cúthalion on 25/12/2009 at 15:16
The optical issue I have with the DM is still that it doesn't look homogeneous to me, although Melan's second screenshot counters that with the few textures used... and by the way, it looks like a typical Melan mission. :sly: Especially in those shots with lots of different objects it appears as if they were collected from all over the world, or as if a DromEd scenery was crowded with three different super high-poly models and high-res texture packs. T1/2 had a more homogeneous and organic look, and so has TDS in my humble opinion, even though it surely lacks the strange warmth of industrialisation, just to come back to the "special" thing.
I don't really think that the less detail provokes more imagination thing really counts; I don't have to imagine I'm in a "real" mansion just because Bafford's looks so bulky. Unless of course the high-detail things throw in an element of gazing at the beautiful graphics (you probably know that an old wooden shack is nothing special but if it was done well in a computer game, we'd all find it great), but in this way we would always have this little barrier with new technology.
I think T1/2 worked because you were never heavily thrown out of immersion. I also believe that with the few most striking flaws of TDS removed it would have been just as immersive, instead of making it hard for the player to look past them and find the really cool things.
JC_Denton on 25/12/2009 at 15:42
T2 is not special to me at all, in fact it ruined almost everything it could for me, its just not the same anymore. and graphically it looks more dated to me than T1, because theres techonology that looks absolutely out of place there, while T1 is all medieval and looks great even today except for the blocky models.
ZylonBane on 25/12/2009 at 15:51
Quote Posted by Melan
Hard to say - there are many possible answers. Here is a question, though: do the pictures below have a Thief atmosphere in your opinion?
Too clean.
No steampunk.
