witherflower on 28/12/2009 at 10:55
Quote Posted by Somebody_Else
This reminds me of the (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_Valley) Uncanny Valley hypothesis regarding robots. Basically, the more lifelike a robot is the more likely people are to be revolted by it.
I suspect something similar applies to gaming. Sure, the shadows and textures in the Dark Mod are leaps and bounds ahead of what you can see in Thief I & II, but your brain notices that it doesn't look quite right. Rather than filling in the details of the scene with your imagination you get a sense that something is off, ruining the experience.
Interesting.
Wille on 28/12/2009 at 12:05
What makes TDP feel unique graphics wise? I think it's the color palette and high contrast raycast lighting.
Every texture (object or world) looks old, worn or gritty because of the limited color palette. Thief 2 had improved color palettes which allowed the use of more clearer textures but at the same time that certain TDP athmosphere was lost - everything looked much more cleaner and sterile which perhaps fitted the game's setting better. Some artists like Vigil have captured the TDP style but this time with better quality textures and objects.
As for the raycast lighting. That's unfortunately something you can't do in TDM without much trickery and it's IMO the biggest reason why many TDM screens look very sterile even with good texturing. Something that could help the lack of raycast would be more bumpy geometry (i.e. as few flat surfaces as possible.)
Beleg Cúthalion on 28/12/2009 at 14:35
But I, on the other hand, don't think those surfaces are too "unbumpy", or, in different words, that a TDP scenery was grittier just because of the surfaces. Of course it will have something to do with lighting and the whole engine thing, but if I try to imagine one of the above shots in DromEd quality, I wouldn't do something about the surfaces I guess. :confused: Could you please give more insight into the raycast thing and how it works, I'm just curious.
witherflower on 28/12/2009 at 16:18
Graphical representation of the gameworld will continue to improve in both detail and resolution. Can't (or shouldn't) do anything about that. But I think that the T1/T2 world looked a little more solid than what is represented in modern engines. That bumb mapped plastic look Zylonbane mentioned makes it all look a bit like hollow shells. Rough, lowpoly, gritty visuals could be a factor- sure. I notice I was way more interested in uncovering as much information as I possibly could in the originial thiefs (through eavesdropping, readables, cut scenes etc) than I am in the more recent releases. But it can't all boil down to visuals, can it?
Background story... That of the thief world is of the most elaborate I've ever come across in a computer game. I was initially disappointed in T2 myself, but after getting into the story I was totally emersed. Having that backbone to hold the various missions is extremely valuable, and makes for a rich gaming experience.
But in the case of TDS, at least, the thief background story was still present. And it still wasn't as immersive.
Traditional Thief style steampunk elements are a must. They're there too (at least to a some degree.) But I still felt like I was playing Monkey Island at some points (which wouldn't have been a bad thing had it been Monkey Island, but it wasn't).
But I can't shake the notion that there is something else beneath the exterior that can be tapped into and brought to modern hardware and game engines and fuel them with that old thief feel.
I think TDM is closer that DS, though. And I'm trying to learn DarkRadiant at the moment. If I managed to learn Dromed I should be able to do that as well.
Wille on 28/12/2009 at 17:34
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
Could you please give more insight into the raycast thing and how it works, I'm just curious.
Oopsie, I think I mixed ray cast with radiosity lighting :o. Wikipedia entry on radiosity:
(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiosity_%283D_computer_graphics%29) Clicky
That article has a good comparison picture which shows the main difference between TDM and T1 & T2 lighting. Basically in TDM you place lights that don't "bounce" at all and always create sharp shadows if they face an obstacle like a column. This sterileness becomes very obvious with boxy architecture but more bumpy and curvy geometry (not just normal maps for textures) can help a lot. TDM training level shows this well as it has areas with simple and boxy architecture and areas with more detail on geometry.
In T1 and T2 light behaves more naturally when it faces an obstacle thus making even lowpoly areas look more alive and vivid. In TDM it is possible to use lightmaps to compensate the lack of radiosity but it's once again another step you'll have to take.
Maddermadcat on 28/12/2009 at 19:24
TDM doesn't feel right to me because of its sound. Every mission I've played so far has been too quiet -- there is no environmental audio. The guards also don't feel vocal enough, and footsteps just sound wrong.
ZylonBane on 28/12/2009 at 19:38
I'm pretty sure Dark's lightmap generation algorithm does not do radiosity. That's what the global illumination setting is intended to compensate for.
SneakyJack on 28/12/2009 at 20:32
The Dark Mod team are listening to complaints and comments that people are giving them from what I've seen and alot of steps are already being taken. Footstep sounds will be adjusted, that "thud" moment from the blackjacking and even things like how long your character stays airborne when you jump (we all know Garrett has the unique ability to 'float' just a bit) that bring back the feeling of the thief games of old from what I've read are being tweaked.
One thing I do agree about is the overall lack of color that seems to plague most newer games in general - but something like that can be fixed by authors as TDM is simply a platform for mission creators, its not a mission pack like Thief2x was. There are alot of grays and browns, indeed - but its up to the community to create levels similar to what we are used to in the colorful world of thief. Sometimes strict realism is not the best way to go - and though it may be more realistic to have all dark colors and an overall drab and broken down feel - Thief isnt exactly the most realistic of game worlds to begin with. So please, mission authors, bring on the color!
And the point about everything in the first two thief games being low rez and needing more imagination thus giving it more colors (with the example of a play used) was a great point as well, very well said.
Also - I remember screens being posted here long ago from some sort of Unreal engine mod someone was working on that were beautiful and felt exactly like thief.. does anyone remember what game those were for and if it was a mod that has been finished? I can't even find the original screenshots that were posted.
Wille on 28/12/2009 at 22:31
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
I'm pretty sure Dark's lightmap generation algorithm does not do radiosity. That's what the global illumination setting is intended to compensate for.
You're right of course. But it looks like some sort of pseudo radiosity, in any case it's more flexible algorithm than the direct lighting used in Doom 3.
Melan on 28/12/2009 at 22:46
There are both upsides and downsides to light. Lights can be assigned a texture in TDM, which is a very fast method to introduce a lot of light effects from flickering candles to electrical sparks. It is a matter of choosing from a menu. These lights have a soft edge just like in Thief. However, shadows are still very sharp, and until the source becomes available and someone hacks in support for softer shadows (which will have a significant hardware cost), they will remain that way.
Thief 1 is still unrivalled as far as ambience goes. I do believe, though, that TDM can jump through most of the hoops, given enough time to expand the database of textures, objects and ambients. If you have talent for any of these, consider volunteering.
