Slamdunk on 7/7/2008 at 19:56
Just curious to know what aspects of the various Thief games people feel are indicative of a good thief story and not just gameplay?
TheGrimSmile on 7/7/2008 at 22:22
The fact that the main "hero" is not on the right side of the law. In fact he's quite against it. It's this rebellion that comes every so often in the gaming world, as it's hard to pull it off if you don't want the character to be a complete donkey-butt.
Another thing is that they seamlessly transitioned from an everyday thief to the "hero" character, and made it so you didn't see it coming. Instead of just blindly pushing you into parts of the game, it gives a reason for everything to happen while still keeping a tight story.
Third is the different factions, mixing up the black and white sides of good and bad. As the game progresses and you learn about each faction, you cannot push them into one group. They give groups different personalities, and allow them reasons to clash. This creates more than two sides, and blurrs the line between good and evil.
Fourth, everyone in the game has flaws, even the unimportant people. This gives the story itself a lot of depth. It's one thing to make a person, and another to really make them come to life. No one is perfect.
Last (that I can think of right now) is that the story knows how to show, not tell. Though some Hammers might mention, you never think the Trickster is such an arse until he shows you that he is. They don't tell you that (TMA Spoiler) Viktoria is really on Garrett's side, and that gives you reason to be suspicious that it's all a trick. They give you a reason to make every decision you make.
Hope that helps! I like writing, so this is just the way I analyze it :thumb:
bartekb81 on 8/7/2008 at 09:18
We mustn't forget that main character has its own personality, which is not very common in games. Garrett itself gives much of a story-depth to a game-experience. Playing Thief is always similar to reading immersive book with great story and well-written characters to me.
Slamdunk on 8/7/2008 at 12:44
I'm very interested in writing as well, hence my question! "Anti-hero" stories tend to be quite a challenge, especially if your trying to have the audience identify or at least feel empathy towards them.
What are some of the key moments from the game you felt successfully achieved this? I always felt Garrett's humour and wit helped and how you would always hear him comment on his achievements. The bank level from Thief 2 always stands out to me ("Am I a master thief or what?") I always felt he played against stereotype and cliché as well; he never responded the way you expected him to from the outset.
I like the idea that an anti-hero is a person who has committed "heroic" deeds, albeit for the wrong reasons. In Garrett's case either for the adventure and thrill of it, or likely for his own profit. As opposed to the selfless sacrifices a normal "hero" makes.
Also the idea of the factions and the variations of black and white - i've always felt the games questioned the idea of "good" and "evil" by making characters more shades of grey as you suggested.
I always loved the idea that Garrett walks a fine line between "good" and "evil"; if you played the harder levels, you had to avoid killing guards. He seemed to enjoy walking this line until someone "evil" came along. At which point it always felt the writers made a point of Garrett trying to distinguish himself from them. ie. "I'm a Thief, not a murderer". He was always put into positions where his own interests played against some larger devilish plot.
This to me led to this "transitioning" idea you mentioned.
And your right bartekb81 - far more depth that your average game, especially ones written at the time!
pavlovscat on 8/7/2008 at 16:44
I appreciate the complexity of the story line. You are given plausible reasons for Garrett's behavior which help with the immersion of the story. He is often the unwitting (and unwilling) savior of the world, but the story makes that seem to be secondary to Garrett saving his own skin. Garrett is also revealed to have a bit of a soft heart, especially concerning Basso.
Garrett is a sarcastic fellow who always seems to get invloved way more than he wants to be. His gruding acceptance of his path makes him seem more human and less "superhero". He carefully conceals his softer side with bluster & sarcasm as if he is afraid to show weakness or fear of being hurt. Who hasn't been there?
Specific instances of this would be rescuing his associate, Basso. Basso is obviously a friend or at least someone Garrett cares about, but he hides he soft side by stating that Basso also owes a debt to Garrett. Also, Garrett often makes a point of stealing from the "bad guys" which makes him likeable because again, who hasn't wanted to get back at "them"?
I think that is the root of what makes the story for me...believability and a main character who has major flaws. Garrett seems like he could be anyman caught up in a big mess. He has no "super powers" though he is a highly skilled thief. To me a good story is also one where I really care what happens to the characters and that keeps me coming back for more!
ToolFan2007 on 8/7/2008 at 19:08
That Garrett is an anti-hero, a loner, someone who does things as one, not a group. His name is mentioned many times through various parties in the Thief games. That's why Garrett appeals to me, he is a myth, a legend, someone who only few get to see.
And one of the things I love about a story is that the various groups such as the Hammerites, the Mechanists can all come together in the story and be either friend or foe to Garrett.
Dante on 8/7/2008 at 21:38
What's interesting to me is that Garrett's selfish attitude (specifically, refusing to make the ultimate sacrifice) causes him to carefully -- but often audaciously! -- plan his way through obstacles. This affects me as a player. Sure, the game mechanics make it so you can't Rambo enemies, but Garrett's mindset sort of oozes into and merges with my own. Many games (Oblivion, for example) forsake the protagonist's personality so that the player can develop his own in-game style and moral code, but I think this often leads to the player's avatar having no character at all, one moment executing (no pun intended ... okay, pun intended) a Dark Brotherhood mission and the next feeling incapable of slaying that little peasant girl.
I'm writing a Renaissance thievery story, and damn is it hard to keep clean of Thief tropes!
TheGrimSmile on 9/7/2008 at 01:15
ToolFan has made me notice something.
A reason people like Garrett, I think, is because he isn't famous. He's part of myth, and there's a part of that which makes him seem all that much cooler.
I think what makes Garrett a good anti-hero is the fact that the story didn't really make you feel sorry or anything for him. Instead of the "My life was horrible, I'm pathetic so feel sorry for me.", they gave Garrett a very charming personality. This made him feel a little more real.
Adding to that, they didn't make Garrett that guy who hated his life, but turned it around. They didn't make him an outcast of society and make him regain his honor. No, Garrett didn't make some big, horrible mistake that cost him everything. He started out as a pickpocket, and they always kept to that idea. He may have saved the world, but never without cutting a few purses.
It's this that makes his character truely speacial.
