Shadowmeld on 14/4/2005 at 18:47
Quote Posted by Bronze Griffin
I think atmosphere is a key aspect.
I agree with this completely. My favorite is Thief 1, the ambient sounds and that dark gritty feel just makes it drip with atmosphere.
Fish-face on 14/4/2005 at 18:53
Gameplay for me. Sweet sweet "thonk" of blackjack on skull - aah! The whole sneaking around, sticking to the shadows thing was something new in its time.
I still feel that, with the 'core' gameplay, TDS was pretty damn good. However, the gameplay factor was much lessened due to the lack of leaning properly, loss of scouting orbs/rope arrows, weird bugs, and above all: a lack of openness. The City failed in its attempt at non-linearity, although as has been said, we still end up with a game better than SC on that point, we don't regain the many ways of entering Bank, e.g. In addition, disastrous puniness of it just made The City worthless. Then there was the way that it was dumbed down - how decent was swordfighting in T1/2, for example, and now, all of a sudden, we have a load of obselete methods of moving because basically, crouching is silent but the same speed as walking. T1/2 had much better balance - crouch-creeping on tile floors? Still made a racket. Perhaps Garrett *should* be wearing socks, but I'll be damned if IS should've cut down yet again on our options.
Wait... This wasn't a TDS rant, was it?
So, yeah. Atmosphere was something that I found much better on TDS - the graphics were just so immersive. Story? Out of all of them, I think I prefer T2, which is just so innovative (anachronistic is the word, here), yet still believable.
Finally, the way it seemed like the developers were creating a whole world for you, through the use of readables (I love them) conversations and the more normal methods. These are things that many games lack, and help greatly in putting you 'in the world.'
Bronze Griffin on 14/4/2005 at 19:00
Quote Posted by Fish-face
(anachronistic is the word, here)
Thanks!
Hah! I'm doing A-Level English.
ZylonBane on 14/4/2005 at 19:18
Not anachronistic though-- steampunk is the more accurate term.
Huckeye on 14/4/2005 at 19:23
Your not just sitting in shadows, which is what many of those who don't like Thief have complained about. You hear conversations, you hear what people might say outloud when they don't know theyre being heard. You surveil a location that you know you should not be in and contemplate what must not be done so that you don't get caught. Its about weighing your actions and their cost. I can't put enought words to the experience and they certainly don't do proper justice, but as a whole the experience is just perfect. I also can't get enough of that 'ching' sound when I find something valueable.
Ambience, atmosphere, sound, story, it has been done well.
Bronze Griffin on 14/4/2005 at 20:05
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Not anachronistic though-- steampunk is the more accurate term.
ArtDeco? Victorian Furniture? Medieval Guards? I thought Steampunk was to do with Steam technology being raised to a fantastic level like 'The Time Machine' and similar works of fiction.
I feel that Thief is both anachronistic and Steampunk.
Aja on 14/4/2005 at 20:11
It's all about atmosphere for me. It's the one thing that makes me come back and play these games again and again, years after I first finished them.
Fish-face on 14/4/2005 at 21:03
Anachronism: n. A misplacing or error in the order of time.
Specifically, the instance of an object or idea existing in a time period inappropriate or incorrect.
Steampunk: n. A genre of science fiction set in Victorian times when steam was the main source of machine power.
Therefore, anachronistic is the more accurate of the two. Medieval is a more accurate description of the time period, and steam is often not the source of power.
What Huckeye said about the loot grab sound (I refer to it as 'gwing') is correct. The sound effects make everything so satisfying - grabbing loot, knocking people out, picking locks. Satisfaction is definitely the sense you get when you've completed some self-set objective - ghosting, BJing all guards, or whatever, or, indeed, simply completing the mission. Exactly how gameplay achieves this, I don't know, but perhaps the fact that each and every teeny objective can be approached in different ways. E.g. a guard is guarding something - what do you do? Blackjack him as he passes? Do you sneak across the floor, or moss arrow it? Do you use an arrow on him? Do you distract him so you can knock him out more easily? When on his patrol? YOU are in control.
Then there's the exhileration you get when, say, sneaking across in between patrols, hiding a body before someone returns, hiding in the shadows, hoping you won't be seen, and so on.
All these mean that you feel better in the role, as if your actions have real consequences.
Ooh, I thought of something else. Sheer innovation - what other game has a system of arrows with such diverse effects as these? I don't even think D&D has such a diverse array! What other game invents factions as lifelike as the hammers and pagans? What other game requires you to play a very stealthy thief, for that matter?
Aditya on 14/4/2005 at 21:18
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
For example, one of the things I think is great about Thief are the huge, expansive levels all fitting into one map load. TDS doesn't have that.
What TDS DOES have is small levels with 'meaningful' content and no more of that useless wandering in the name of "gameplay"
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Another great thing is how Thief bent over backward to avoid "gamey" elements in the interface. TDS didn't do that.
Instead TDS gave mediaeval touch even to the interface, consistent with the Garrett’s world, with the introduction of gears. Not bad. And anyways, Thief is more than its face-value, the interface.
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
I thought the AI animations were great-- very natural-looking. In TDS, they aren't.
Yes, no more of that AI kissing the ground like stiff heavy sand-bag like models of T1/2, oh-so-natural-looking.
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
The rope arrows were great, giving the player to basically make his own ladder anywhere an arrow would stick. TDS... nope.
Instead, you have climbing gloves which provides same means for vertical navigation.
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
The ability to lean was great, allowing the player to quickly peek around a corner without exposing himself. In TDS, lean replaced with sidestep.
And that doesn't affect gameplay a bit. Actually it makes leaning more realistic because now you CAN be seen, even briefly, when you lean in lighted areas, unlike T1/2.
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Oh yeah, and the cool briefing animations, those were really great. Gone in TDS.
Yes, miss them too. But did they make Thief, THE game? No.
Now, coming to what makes Thief great, THE game, I think:
1. Non-forced, natural stealth
gameplay…because the protagonist is REALLY a fragile being, not some soldier equipped with stealth generator belt.
2.
Atmosphere: time of night, buildings with glowing windows, streets filled with guards patrolling, moody music...danger and excitement, challenge and fun of breaking into guarded mansions, abandoned places…constant lingering fear of unknown… uh, cant seem to write enough and all about this “atmosphere” thing here, but you get my point
3.
Story: The way its presented…players gets sucked into Garrett’s psyche…s/he BECOMES Garrett. I could FEEL the loss of Gerrett’s eye, the betrayal, vengeance…to sum it up, its very immersive.
Fish-face on 14/4/2005 at 21:43
Quote Posted by Aditya
What TDS DOES have is small levels with 'meaningful' content and no more of that useless wandering in the name of "gameplay"
Smaller levels in TDS were bad. Load zones were annoying. No-one should pretend otherwise.
Quote Posted by Aditya
Yes, no more of that AI kissing the ground like stiff heavy sand-bag like models of T1/2, oh-so-natural-looking.
Yes, but you
do have AI bending over backwards, or getting their knees stuck in cobblestones. I think the ragdoll going wrong was worse than the non-ragdoll going wrong.
Quote Posted by Aditya
Instead, you have climbing gloves which provides same means for vertical navigation.
It does not provide the same means. It provides a very limited means, vastly restricting its application because the developers didn't allow them to be used very often. Very frequently they placed minute ridges in walls - for what other reason than to prevent scaling? Most times, you couldn't even get to a different wall from one wall, so climbing was generally useless. In addition, there were no times when climbing appear natural, unlike the rope arrows - every single place where they could be used to some advantage felt contrived.
Quote Posted by Aditya
And that doesn't affect gameplay a bit. Actually it makes leaning more realistic because now you CAN be seen, even briefly, when you lean in lighted areas, unlike T1/2.
You could be seen before when leaning, it's just unrealistic because when leaning, what do you do? step out into the corridor? No, you poke your face around the corner just a teeny bit. In addition, with no forward lean, you can't blackjack people as well.
Anywho, the other stuff is all good... TDS was good, but not excellent.
