Koki on 12/7/2010 at 17:57
Quote Posted by Gingerbread Man
Am I the only person who remembers that Thief was essentially a
puzzle game and that all this bullshit foray into the world of Deus Ex and other less-linear (at least at a mission level), reasonably intelligent shooters is what started us on the road to Deadly Shadows in the first place?
Considering Deus Ex is as similar to Deadly Shadows as it is to Call of Duty, I reckon the answer is yes?
jtr7 on 13/7/2010 at 00:12
GBM, yeah, it's a puzzles game. The pattern of AI movement and how to pass through a space and get to the object or to the next space are all puzzles aside from the more blatant ones.
Beleg Cúthalion on 13/7/2010 at 08:08
I don't know if it's a matter of where you come from in terms of computer games, but I perceived Thief as an...let's say... environment interacting game. It's me with certain characteristics (abilities, tools and their characteristics) in an environtment (or hostile environment as...IIRC Null said) with its own. That's also why I consider it more or less realistic. These characteristics don't change just like that, it's not like the guard suddenly discovers me because of scripted events or because I enter a certain attack radius, it stays more or less logical... and realistic. It doesn't matter if the AI wants to beat, eat me or cast a spell, I rather mean that in general it is something I can rely on with my real world experience. (I don't know if this is still puzzle gaming but I never played as many old games where the term was probably more literal.)
That's why I usually put such an emphasis on realistic characteristics of the elements or tools employed. If the game is already on this path, illogical elements become all the more obvious – perhaps not with an electrical light in a medieval street, but with robots shooting cannonballs while I only have a bow. Or when I'm able to carry a mighty combat weapon because its implementation doesn't hinder me in my usual thievy business.
Quote Posted by Serpentine
the weapon itself should do damage, block and not be 'boring', but there should be heavy consequence for using it
And I think there should already be a certain consequence for taking it with you. The whole idea about packing your things and going out for the job is IMHO deranged when you can everything with you and not suffer the consequences of being so "careful". And it's not like this would be too hard a punishment, after all these elements can be graded with the difficulty levels.
Brother_Murus on 13/7/2010 at 08:12
I'd like to see more 'puzzles', like secret rooms hidden behind banners, bookshelf doors, hidden levers that open secret doors, roof-tops that can be explored, elevators with broken buttons etc. :cool:
Koki on 13/7/2010 at 12:02
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
The whole idea about packing your things and going out for the job is IMHO deranged when you can everything with you and not suffer the consequences of being so "careful".
I know where you're coming from but seriously, it's a video game. You have to susped your disbelief a little, at the very least because of the technical limitations and/or imperfect human-game interface. Your complaints are seriously on the nitpicky side of things. Applying your logic, I could say that in Thief 4:
- You have no health bar. As soon as you get hit, it's game over. Even if you weren't killed outright, you'd be slowed down enough(and leave a trail of blood behind you enough) that enemies would catch up to you and mince you anyway.
- In all "human" missions, once you get spotted, it's game over. You can safely assume that the general alarm is raised, guards move in to protect the target and you've failed as obviously they'll stay there protecting the target till the morning/reinforcements/city watch arrive.
- You have no sword, as you said, it's too big, too heavy, and too cumbersome.
- You have no blackjack, missing guards would certainly be noticed and you can't be sure how fast people you blackjacked will wake up anyway. Not to mention blackjacking itself is highly unreliable and you couldn't blackjack anyone with head protection, such as, uh,
guards.
- You have no bow. It's too big, too cumbersome(much more so than a sheathed sword) and the arrows are almost completely useless: broadheads can't be used as thieves are not murderers, water arrows can't be used as extinguishing torches would alert the guards, fire arrows would glow/burn through the quiver, moss arrows leave obvious sings you're in the building and so do noisemakers.
- You have no flashbombs, as they're only used when you alerted the guards(i.e. lost the game)
- You have no mines, as there's no reason for a thief to blow someone up.
- You have no holy weather, because you have no water arrows and it wouldn't work because you're a heathen anyway.
- You have no dagger, because what would you use one for.
Get it yet?
Beleg Cúthalion on 13/7/2010 at 17:53
I take the first point, but not the latter ones. :p I wasn't talking about making all of it realistic, but I'd appreciate the general direction. A few days ago I saw a Tomb Raider gameplay video with snapping doors in an old temple and I asked myself why such things (in video game terms: abstract obstacles) still exist in the 21st century. Moreover, I can understand it in 2D Super Mario games but in a 3D PC game with otherwise photo-realistic (I mean, the general direction) graphics...?
PS: ...delivering the missing "take" in the sentence quoted above.
jtr7 on 14/7/2010 at 01:27
I can't imagine what it is about the games he likes that he bothers with them at all. There's nothing realistic about the games at all. Not one thing is realistically detailed and accurate.
Beleg Cúthalion on 14/7/2010 at 06:48
Just accept for a moment that people might have a different impression of the game than you have. And, only if you like, imagine "he" is not the only one. Your ways of arguing about ingame (story) elements are based on realistic behaviour as well. I don't need you to tell me that computer games are never completely realistic, but the Thief environment is reliable. Jordan Thomas' whole concept of immersion relies on applying real-world experience. This wouldn't work if Thief was not realistic "at all". I wonder what's so hard to grasp in that respect.
fetgalningen on 14/7/2010 at 14:37
About weapons. I feel that a sword is a must in Thief IV. Its so much fun to fence with several guards, you can't do that with a tiny dagger. Or at least make us able to choose, or able to pick up longswords as we go along. The ONLY punishment for wielding it should be that you move a little slower than when wielding a dagger or a shorter sword.
Jomero on 16/7/2010 at 17:54
Make it so that crouching does not put you in 100% silent mode, regardless of the surface you are on. T:DS did this. It mattered not if you were on crunchy gravel or metal grating... as soon as you began crouching, it was all turned into plush carpet.
Lame, lame, lame, lame, more lame, lame, with a lame cherry on top of the lame sundae.
If console kiddies can't handle a little more difficulty, then give them a (
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1938370) Super Easy Mode and let the rest of us enjoy feeling like we accomplished something when we beat a mission.
