jtr7 on 14/8/2010 at 06:13
Yes. Which is why they should discover them, and why they should be in T4. The unintended gutting of standard Thief game-mechanics and world-building in TDS is not a valid excuse for leaving the things TDS unintentionally and things the devs themselves regrettably left out, out of T4. They should be restored beyond their former glory, expanded upon, and the game world shouldn't be designed to force their use, while allowing plenty of opportunity to freely use them, with rewards for their exploration sprinkled lightly here and there, and consequences for using them wastefully or for violence. TDS is a shadow of the full Thief experience, and should not be the standard for Thief gameplay, and certainly not world-building, and I'm not talking graphics and user-tech.
T4 should blow the minds of people who only know TDS, and make them think these things are new, while blowing the minds of the fans who've played all the games, for how the genre has been evolved progressively, sticking to the core principles that make a Thief game not like any other game. The games' differences from the mainstream and the expected, and the games' intentional departure from industry norms, action and shooter norms, and adventure norms, are what needs to dictate what goes into T4, not any group-think. Cause and effect. If the group is thinking about what the games actually are about, in the wonderfully nebulous-yet-constrained ways, then the critics of that group had better have a foundation to stand on, or they exclude themselves and the group only calls them on it.
Also, "this forum" is no different than other forums in clique forming, and individuals come to the forums regularly telling all of us what to think, so I call BS. The point of this forum is to express your wishes, and the ideas that are thought through have a better chance than treating threads as ballot boxes with likes and dislikes checked off. Having no experience with one or more of the titles is a gaping hole in the information for forming a well-rounded opinion.
Mortal Monkey on 17/8/2010 at 14:05
Water isn't an important gameplay element. Neither are doors, balconies, stairs, rope arrows, courtyards, levers, plants, lockpicks and skulls. You can make a perfectly good mission without any of those elements.
Edit: I just realized that d'Spair said the same thing, minus the sarcasm, not three posts above. Now, I'd like to hear what the "core elements" that define Thief are.
Chade on 17/8/2010 at 22:01
Sight, sound, AI, barriers to each, atmosphere, and "unexpected" methods of moving around.
Doors are actually very important, as they are the only way I know of to block sight and sound while not restricting movement. Without doors you couldn't have guards unexpectedly entering a room, which is quite important for both gameplay and tension.
Rope arrows or some other powerful form of 3d movement are also quite important, as they make the player feel like he is moving around the level in some "unauthorised" fashion. Jumping and mantling can also achieve this, but as this is a core aspect of thief, it's appropriate to have powerful tools.
Water can be another good way to make the player feel like they are moving around in an "unauthorised" way, but it doesn't integrate with the rest of the game nearly as well as climbing tools do, so it's not as important.
Water, along with balconies, plants, etc, are also useful tools to establish an atmosphere. But you don't need all of these elements to create an atmosphere ... you just need enough of them.
Brian The Dog on 18/8/2010 at 13:15
Quote Posted by Mortal Monkey
Water isn't an important gameplay element. Neither are doors, balconies, stairs, rope arrows, courtyards, levers, plants, lockpicks and skulls. You can make a perfectly good mission without any of those elements.
True, but they give the level designers more options when creating each mission. If you went to the guys in the Editor's Guild here and told them to create a mission without any of the things you mentioned, they could happily do it but would ask "why" as you're limiting their scope. Giving them more options for their missions means (at least the possibility of) more creativity in the level design.
Me personally I'd add as much as possible into the Engine, and then let the level designers choose what is applicable to the mission in hand. For instance, let Garrett have a sword AND/OR a short-sword, and then let the designer choose which one to give the player.
Without wanting to sound too post-modern, if you ask different people "what makes Thief Thief?" you'll get lots of different replies. Some will get all upset if Garrett is not the protagonist, others won't. For me, I'd say the setting in a semi-medieval environment, the stealing of items, and the multiple methods of solving particular problems the author has designed. However, you'll find many missions that are different to this - some have no loot (e.g. some of the Japanese missions), some have no enemies, and some are in a completely different setting. Still, what I mention above is true for the "majority" of the Fan Missions.
ZylonBane on 18/8/2010 at 16:03
Quote Posted by Brian The Dog
True, but they give the level designers more options when creating each mission.
Whoooosh.
Fraser on 19/8/2010 at 05:27
I want Thief 4 to be like Thief Gold and Thief 2 but with better graphics. Same first-person gameplay, large levels, lots of alternate routes under the streets and over the rooftops, same emphasis on stealth as opposed to fighting, same restrictions on equipment purchases. Yep, I'm old school when it comes to Thief.
I liked Thief 3 well enough, but the small levels, limited maps and unlimited equipment made the game far too easy. The whole point of the game for me is sneaking; sneaking with scarce resources to force me to think about how I'm going to proceed. I don't want to swashbuckle around waving a sword and chucking arrows at everything. Anyone who wants to do that can play Oblivion or Dragon Age, (both also wonderful games). This game is Thief, not Robber, not Home Invasion, not Assault and Battery.
I loved the oil flasks, though. They should stay. They fit. :cheeky:
Platinumoxicity on 19/8/2010 at 09:42
Speaking of unlimited equipment, games where you can acquire unlimited amounts of equipment often assume that the player tries to acquire the maximum amount. Also, since the equipment is unlimited, the player must also often assume that they need to try to acquire as much as possible too, to ensure safe completion of the mission.
Brian The Dog on 19/8/2010 at 16:05
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Whoooosh.
I'm sorry, it's been a long day so my understanding isn't that great, what do you mean by this?
Yandros on 19/8/2010 at 17:15
I believe he's indicating that you failed to notice MM's sarcasm.
Brian The Dog on 19/8/2010 at 21:44
Oh, OK, thanks for clarifying. As I say, it's been a long and tiring week :(
