Platinumoxicity on 17/5/2010 at 05:40
If you google "short sword" or "arming sword" and compare the images to screenshots from T1 or T2, you'll see that the blade and hilt dimensions match.
And if you compare the stealthiness of T1&T2 to the stealthiness in TDS you'll see that the game where Garrett makes more noise is the one where Garrett has the dagger, and not the sword. In TDS you can't even jump down onto a carpet without alerting everyone. And it's useless as a weapon because Garrett is not an assassin and doesn't know how to stab without making noise it seems. TDS was also the only game that didn't allow busting in doors, because Garrett was missing his sword. (And because all locks were pickable anyway. :devil: )
There is nothing good about the dagger. Every change attributed to the addition of the dagger made the gameplay worse. There was no improvement whatsoever.
Beleg Cúthalion on 17/5/2010 at 21:17
Now that's ignoring so many issues that I'm not even in the mood to adress them all. :erg: There should be a lot of threads about that over at ThiefGen and also here. It starts with the TDS dagger having not much to do with other gameplay elements like sound propagation etc. and goes on with stating that the sword isn't just a machete either ("...is not an assassin")... to finally arrive at the point that dagger implementation surely can be improved.
When you google "short sword" the majority of results seems to be made up of fantasy crap and other stuff spoiled by RPG thinking. The point I'm trying to make is that there was probably never the balance-thinking which you need in RPGs: A shorter blade makes you quicker while having less attack points, while with a longer sword it's vice-versa. Of course there were shorter and longer swords in history, but almost never in the same military context. A Roman gladius was designed for stabbing around a huge shield in a tight formation and has nothing whatsoever to do with medieval fighting methods. Either the difference is a military one like here or one in time or one in accessibility like with peasant weapons (Dussack) or smaller secondary weapons like the Viking seax. The only historical references of "short" and "long" swords which I know appear in a fencing book. There's a difference then between holding a long sword (i.e. two-handed) with one hand at the blade (for armour fencing) and thus "short", while holding it in the usual manner is presenting it the "long" way.
Long story short, give Garrett a normal one-handed sword (which isn't significantly more cumbersome than a slightly shortened version) if the mission requires it and otherwise give him a dagger for cutting things, just because anyone and especially a thief could use a knife once in a while.
MissyK on 18/5/2010 at 06:39
What I didn't like about TDS was the console feel of the game. I understand they wanted more sales, so that means porting to other systems, but I was upset that my PC game didn't feel like a PC game.
Also, I'm with all of you on the 1st/3rd person...this is a first person sneaker, leave it first person.
Have to admit though the flask of oil at the top of a staircase was really fun ;)
Brian The Dog on 18/5/2010 at 10:41
Definitely include rope arrows and swimming - they were taken out for engine limitation reasons in T3, so should definitely be back in. The other thing that bugged me in T3 was the automated blackjacking. It got to the stage I just ended up swinging the thing randomly while walking behind someone, hoping to knock them out - and this from a player who's finished both original games on Expert and completed 100+ fan missions.
As Avalon said, make the body motion more nimble and free-flowing - Garrett in T3 felt like he was moving through treacle most of the time, whereas in T2 you get the feeling he's not the best fighter, but can run away from most things if he really wants to. Keep head-bob if you want to, but have it as an option in the game.
The level size was also too small in T3, to enable XBox sales - it'd be better to either stick with single missions held together with cutscenes, or have a GTA3-style city where new areas are streamed into RAM when you arrive at them.
Neb on 18/5/2010 at 12:26
Quote Posted by Brian The Dog
Garrett in T3 felt like he was moving through treacle most of the time,
To me it felt like the handling on a shopping trolley. :(
R Soul on 18/5/2010 at 13:20
One of the problems is that when stationary, the body doesn't turn with the mouse*, so if you start moving when there's a difference in direction, the body moves forwards while turning, like a car leaving a parking bay. From the camera's point of view, you're briefly going sideways.
*until the difference in direction is 20 or 30 degrees (just a guess). And then it just slides into position. Try it yourself - stop walking, look down and turn around using the mouse...
ZylonBane on 18/5/2010 at 15:44
Hooray for Body Awareness.
Bakerman on 19/5/2010 at 08:19
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Hooray for Body Awareness.
Let's not start that again :P
Quote Posted by Brian The Dog
Garrett in T3 felt like he was moving through treacle most of the time
I thought it was the lack of acceleration - you were either moving at full speed or not at all. Shameful oversight.
I think a big improvement, for me at least, would be a return to the classic appearance of the City - not the run-of-the-mill grey-stone look, but with vibrant colours, weird magical machines about the place, and the silent passers-by. (Speaking of silent passers-by... for some reason T3 felt to me a lot more like a Saturday-morning cartoon. Hmm.)
Beleg Cúthalion on 19/5/2010 at 11:08
I think with a gamepad you were able to alter Garrett's speed fluently. No idea though if it had any effect on the sound propagation.
Shadowriku95 on 19/5/2010 at 18:48
I'd like bigger maps as well...
...how 'bout....Well...graphics like Assassins Creed had would be nice. Smoother graphics and all....Not that the others were bad, but maybe it be a bit more....thiefy :cool: It might also make the movement...better ?
...Ermmm...more places to hide. A few more civilian houses available to go in and out as you please.
What is outside the city ? Anything ? :eek: Maybe we could explore that in Thief 4.
The sword HAS to come back. The dagger was kinda lame to defend yourself....I got in some situations when I was cornered by several guards, no flashbombs left....and I barely got away with killing them all with the dagger. And I know the point of Thief is not to kill, but still....I only do so in self-defense.
...that's all I got for now...
...And it felt like a Saturday-morning cartoon to me too ! :thumb::wot:
...then again, I played a lot on Saturday-mornings :cool:
