Chade on 6/7/2010 at 00:21
I'm arguing the sword should be removed to discourage combat ... logically, this implies a certain attitude towards such objectives ...
Judaeus Apella on 6/7/2010 at 05:40
Instead of arguing like children over the sword, why not just ask for an inventory system that lets the USER decide which weapon they want to use? I totally agree, this is a stealth game and I too usually only use the blackjack and the bow... but when you're playing a game that takes place in the castle age... you really want to be in a sword fight! It just goes hand and hand with the scenery and the time period you're in.
I really want a full inventory system in this game, and I always end up with lots of spare cash in Deadly Shadows. I'd like to put that cash to good use, and shop for new weapons and gear.
Also, something I want to bring up is that I liked Thief II more than Deadly Shadows, mainly because there was so much fun to be had on the roof tops. Deadly shadows was mostly streets and alleys. I'd like to see an effort put into putting an equal about of both in the game... not just one or the other.
Gvozdika on 6/7/2010 at 06:49
Quote Posted by Judaeus Apella
Instead of arguing like children over the sword, why not just ask for an inventory system that lets the USER decide which weapon they want to use?
Absolutely. When you read my first post in this thread on page one you will find this is what Im asking for. I just think that the important point there is to give weapons distinct characteristics, strengths and weak points, not just make them different flavours of the same thing over and over again to please different aesthetics. A sword is fine with me as long as it doesnt play out as a thing a thief can just put in and out of his pocket whatever the situation.
d'Spair on 6/7/2010 at 09:35
Quote Posted by Judaeus Apella
Instead of arguing like children over the sword, why not just ask for an inventory system that lets the USER decide which weapon they want to use?
That would suck big balls. One of Thief's strongest points was the lack of big and ugly interface screens and very easy-to-use, extremely intuitive and almost graphics free HUD.
jtr7 on 6/7/2010 at 09:50
If it's all things to all people, it's a mess almost no one enjoys, and these things are made on a finite budget on a deadline, and rarely get out the door bug-free. They should make a Thief-game, not give a damn about historical accuracy and other realities that never were intended to have a damn thing to do with the game, and stick with literature, movies, theatre, and the arts in classic, sci-fi, fantasy, strange fantasy, and horror genres, anachronistic and steampunk, industrial and renaissance, Victorian and Tudor, ancient Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Mayan... Build multiple purpose tools that are simple in concept and seem simple only looking at them, but spend more time on the world and how those same simple-seeming tools change the world when used in several ways each, according to circumstance.
No emphasis or power should ever be given to combat and winning in combat, but in all other uses. If a player gets themselves cornered, they usually have several ways to get out of situation unscathed without ever drawing a damned blade. Other tools, in a THIEF game, are better, and should always be better, and players who want Thief to be something else should have to go out of their way to have it so, not have it made for them.
Andarthiel on 6/7/2010 at 11:22
Quote Posted by Koki
Well not to spoil the games for you Andarthiel but if you'd continue to play beyond first mission you'd meet a lot of [spoiler]hostile undead, hostile animals and chaos beasts[/spoiler] against which sword definitely came in handy.
Also check "Poll series:Weapons/Inventory" for overly long discussion on the sword topic
I have played through all three games and never had to use the sword because frankly it's cumbersome.
All the enemies you mentioned can be taken care of through better methods. Chaos beasts can be blackjacked or killed with arrows(and even the tree creatures in TDS can be stabbed with a dagger), the burricks can be blackjacked again and zombies can be taken out with flashbombs, fire arrows, mines and/or holy water. No need for the sword at all. I guess it's more of a tool for people who do get into trouble and have to fight their way out.
Mortal Monkey on 6/7/2010 at 13:24
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
What, you mean like a mandatory objective to kill a bunch of Bugbeasts?
Pfft. That's just a matter of running away enough times that the Bugbeasts fall into the water <s>and drown</s>.
Beleg Cúthalion on 6/7/2010 at 13:27
For ZylonBane this is probably trifle enough to be considered a serious argument. :p
Quote Posted by jtr7
If it's all things to all people, it's a mess almost no one enjoys, and these things are made on a finite budget on a deadline, [...]
We're talking about choosing a sword or a dagger after the briefing, two already known concepts. We're not introducing an armoury store, besides, I guess hardly anyone didn't enjoy the big variety of tools accessible in the store windows in T1/2. However, there probably is a general agreement on the versatileness of implemented tools or weapons.
About your other remarks... well, go play Diablo or any other fantasy game. There you've got plenty of gear reduced to numbers, aesthetical game design elements and player-friendly (e.g. comfortably to use) tools. The many stylistic elements of Thief cannot hide the general attitude towards realism and that is something people can rely on.
Quote Posted by Judaeus Apella
Instead of arguing like children over the sword...
I like discussing things and dislike it when people criticise discussions just because they are there or rather long. So what is it you didn't like in particular?
jtr7 on 6/7/2010 at 20:54
I'm rarely talking about what you think I am, nor for motives you believe. I did not mention, and did not intend, and did not fail to consider the gaming aspects of these additions to my words you've tossed in that are irrelevant to my points. You keep offending yourself by dragging ideas into established games that were intentionally left out due to unimportance and the work involved that would blow deadlines and budgets, and still wasn't considered with sequels. You'll never understand how much I want more detail and care given to things that set this game apart form others, and the blade is not near the top of the list. There's no reason to add so much detail to the blades, aesthetically or mechanically, if the reasons are to look bad-ass and to make combat realistic. I'm not interested in a reality simulator, nor do I demand historical accuracy of a game that has nothing to do with real history and isn't hiding that fact. You keep ruining it for yourself. What I want is much more than that weird Diablo math crap you think is anything close to what I envision, especially after I mentioned increased usage of a tool and environmental interaction. You want things so bad, you don't see what's already there in your favor. It would be so much simpler if you were just perpetually throwing in the same straw man, but I suspect you really think your antagonism as presented is legit and not prohibitively difficult for the industry to pull off during the course of making an entire game.
Gvozdika on 7/7/2010 at 07:25
Thief for me has always been a game about immersion and atmosphere. The former requires a distinct level of plausibility. Im not saying realism mind you. If for the sake of simplicity or limited budget things make it into the game, that feel too dissonant or simply plain wrong, then this may have been forgivable when it was 1998.
Today I would not forgive that. Immersion needs a basic level of plausibility or else the whole thing is turned into a cartoon. And Thief should not be that kind of a game.
