New Horizon on 3/8/2008 at 23:06
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
Anyway, I think recognizing the dagger as a pure killing weapon is sticking one's neck out as well as recognizing the sword as a defensive weapon.
Well, a dagger pretty much IS a pure killing weapon. If you use it against someone, you're either going to stab them in the back to take them out quietly, or stab them repeatedly until they die. It's smaller, but a far more brutal weapon.
The character behind a (long or short) sword determines whether it is used as a
defensive or offensive unit. In the case of
Thief, it was established that '
Garrett' was not a master swordsman, nor was he a murderer. Garrett's main use of the sword was to block blows and, if the player was foolish enough, deliver some clumsy attacks. A sword '
is' a defensive weapon, like it or not, since you can effectively block with it and deflect the blows of your opponents.
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A defensive weapon (would be a shield and) makes no sense for a character who doesn't want to be discovered, left aside that in what I'd narrow Thief's medieval elements down to – namely the late middle ages – the emphasis would be rather on armour than on shields, which would be ruled out either. That's why I think the dagger is more appropriate for a thief, and everyone who has carried a sword and tried to walk down stairs with it will agree.
How did we get into Shields? A shield isn't even a weapon really...it's just a protective device. A defensive weapon (short sword) makes perfect sense for someone who doesn't want to be discovered, it gives them a moment to block an attack and then flee. You are better able to deflect combat, and save your life.
I've worn a full sized sword rather extensively while acting in a film last autumn, so I know the rigors of moving with one. It's clumsy, but in addition to the full sized sword, there was also a short sword that I got to play with and it was very easy to move around with. It's small, but gives you some benefits over a long sword.
It's small and lighter than your opponents long sword. The smaller size allows you to move faster and block those attacks from the heavier, slower long swords.
Inline Image:
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v149/56/56/644095787/n644095787_1561153_9004.jpgI used a full sized sword in the film, and not a 'short sword'. A short sword is no harder to move up and down stairs with than a dagger would be. :)
A dagger might be more appropriate for a 'thief', but my argument is that it is not appropriate for the firmly established character of Garrett. I simply disagree with you, based on what was established in the previous games. I don't care if it would be more 'real world' realistic for Garrett to carry a simple dagger, as Thief isn't the real world. The sword better suited his established character, and I'll stand by that!
jay pettitt on 4/8/2008 at 00:01
look at you all nerdy rugged and handsome just like the tundra you purvey.
One has to agree; I'd not carry a sword if I were a cat burglar, but being able to defend oneself from guards is much more fun, in the context of thief, than going stabby stabby stabby.
New Horizon on 4/8/2008 at 03:13
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
look at you all
nerdy rugged and handsome
One has to agree; I'd not carry a sword if I were a cat burglar, but being able to defend oneself from guards is much more fun, in the context of thief, than going stabby stabby stabby.
Well, I wouldn't carry a full sized sword either. :)
Beleg Cúthalion on 4/8/2008 at 07:29
Quote Posted by New Horizon
Well, a dagger pretty much IS a pure killing weapon. If you use it against someone, you're either going to stab them in the back to take them out quietly, or stab them repeatedly until they die. It's smaller, but a far more brutal weapon.
Well, it's also a tool, just like a knife, but that would be an issue for Thief IV as well. I'm not questioning that a dagger is a simply deadly weapon, but...
Quote:
The character behind a (long or short) sword determines whether it is used as a
defensive or offensive unit. In the case of
Thief, it was established that '
Garrett' was not a master swordsman, nor was he a murderer. Garrett's main use of the sword was to block blows and, if the player was foolish enough, deliver some clumsy attacks. A sword '
is' a defensive weapon, like it or not, since you can effectively block with it and deflect the blows of your opponents. [...] A defensive weapon (short sword) makes perfect sense for someone who doesn't want to be discovered, it gives them a moment to block an attack and then flee. You are better able to deflect combat, and save your life.
It's true that you have to parry with the blade (especially if you have nothing else), BUT you do it only in a combat situation where your next step would be to kill...because otherwise he kills you. If you want to run you should do that before. Do you think (1) anyone would draw a sword to block something and
then run away? Do you think anyone would carry a sword just to have a metal bar in between in case someone or something dangerous comes running? That's why I threw in a shield because it has usually only this purpose... but not a sword. It
might be an issue of what the game allows you to do, but left aside that parrying in TDP/TMA was not really designed to work properly, (2) no normal person would consider this sword to be a primarily defensive weapon. Of course Garrett is no fighterweknowthatone and the sword is thus merely for emergency cases, but it is most of all a weapon to kill (and chop icicles) and that makes it imho equal to the dagger in that purpose. Plus, while daggers were worn back then more often than swords, it makes Garrett even more soldier-like.
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A defensive weapon (short sword) makes perfect sense for someone who doesn't want to be discovered, it gives them a moment to block an attack and then flee.
...which I said is most unlikely. IF suddenly an angry guard appeared by your side, you don't draw a sword, plus, you would not have drawn it before if it was just to block an angry guard's first blow. Why should someone enter a critical measure if only to hop out again? There is no sense in doing that unless you plan to prevent your opponent from striking again. And even if, you're better off hitting him in the face quickly or something.
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I've worn a full sized sword rather extensively while acting in a film last autumn, so I know the rigors of moving with one. It's clumsy, but in addition to the full sized sword, there was also a short sword that I got to play with and it was very easy to move around with. It's small, but gives you some benefits over a long sword. It's small and lighter than your opponents long sword. The smaller size allows you to move faster and block those attacks from the heavier, slower long swords.
As I said, there were no shortswords. There might have been
short(er) swords (it's a little annoying that you can't write compounds like that in English) like seaxes and of course from the late 13th century we have the so-called long swords or one-and-a-half-hand swords besides the usual ones, but no one ever saw a purpose in designing a sword that was intentionally shorter just to make it more handy. Why? Most probably because it
was designed to kill and any intentional disadvantage would be nonsense. As I said somewhere else, threwing all kinds of swords from history into one context (RPGs, I fear) and giving them different properties for the sake of the system is incredibly far from realism because it pulls them out of their original context and assumes that they existed in the same period. The thing is, every weapon has to be handled in a slightly different way - and a guard with a longer sword than Garrett's could keep him away which would make it even more ridiculous for our thief to enter the measure (or let the guard come) just to parry a blow and then run away again.
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A dagger might be more appropriate for a 'thief', but my argument is that it is not appropriate for the firmly established character of Garrett. I simply disagree with you, based on what was established in the previous games. I don't care if it would be more 'real world' realistic for Garrett to carry a simple dagger, as Thief isn't the real world. The sword better suited his established character, and I'll stand by that!
See it the way you like, but imho the sword is as obviously an offensive weapon as is the dagger. But it's less practical for the usual thief business. And I think sword fighting is real enough so that I wouldn't dig up the old Thief-is-not-real-so-we-can-do-anything kind of argument.
Muzman on 4/8/2008 at 08:48
I don't care either way about this argument, just so folks know, but are you trying to tell me that no one ever made a short sword where they could make a long one, or made them concurrently in periods with longer broadsword sizes?
I don't know but it sounds sus to me.
What about the wakizashi? Surely that's a short sword?
Jashin on 4/8/2008 at 09:53
It's very simple: The bigger/longer the sword, more range it has and harder it hits, but it also means the shorter the fighting distance/more confined the space, slower and more clumsy it gets.
Light, short, and concealable, dagger just fits. And yes, you can parry with daggers. You just have to get real close to nullify the power of the swing which, again, fits the whole Thief motif.
As far as I'm concerned, the switch to the dagger is far more appropriate for the characterization, even if it double-backs on what the previous games have established.
Beleg Cúthalion on 4/8/2008 at 11:03
Quote Posted by Muzman
[...] but are you trying to tell me that no one ever made a short sword where they could make a long one, or made them concurrently in periods with longer broadsword sizes?
Well, of course there were shorter swords, as I said, but the lengths were either based on purpose (e.g. longer swords for cavalrymen, which meant about three or four inches if I'm not mistaken) or were made to fit the guy who had to wield it (i.e. rather rich people, but since men are usually about the same size, that would mean only two or three inches difference). I believe seaxes were used in the same context as swords, but - and I admit I'm not so familiar with all that viking/early medieval stuff - I believe rather as tools, knives, dagger replacements or secondary weapons for spear men.
Inline Image:
http://www.eidosforum.de/images/smilies/addon/kratz.gif There is a German (
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurzschwert) Wikipedia page for the short sword which apparently goes with all that superficial RPG stuff, but when it comes to examples, it only mentions the Roman gladii (and they were AFAIK not longer due to production difficulties and their purpose: to stab over the shield), the Katzbalger, which was a simple one-handed sword during the Peasants' Wars in a period where there were guns and the long two-handed swords... and finally the wakizashi, which appears to be some kind of dagger/knife as well as a seax. Summa summarum, while there surely were shorter and longer swords, they usually didn't appear in the same context/period. It would mean that Thief's guards would have to wear Katzbalgers if we want Garrett to have a shorter sword.
No warranty for complete historical correctness, but I think most of it should be right.
Oh, and to come back to topic a little bit: I don't really dislike the sword for Garrett in general (see above), but it should be a real one then.
New Horizon on 4/8/2008 at 13:36
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
As I said, there were no shortswords. There might have been
short(er) swords (it's a little annoying that you can't write compounds like that in English) like seaxes and of course from the late 13th century we have the so-called long swords or one-and-a-half-hand swords besides the usual ones...
Are you talking about a game, or real life? I'm talking about a
game.Thief is a game...our history doesn't exactly apply within a game universe where steam and magic make mechanical contraptions work. It's a mash'up of various historical elements, and then some not so historical. Our timeline does not apply. It's not earth. A short sword would be perfectly believable.
Your assumption that 'short-er' swords did not differ that much from longer swords is both correct and incorrect. As I said earlier, a short sword could be as little as 24 to 25 inches...that's including the handle.
In any case, I'm dropping this one because we simply have different philosophies when it comes to Thief.
Beleg Cúthalion on 4/8/2008 at 19:51
I have a tendency of avoiding unnecessary fantasy elements because they usually (and especially in steampunk worlds) produce paradoxa when thinking about them. I admit this sword issue is a little harder to recognize and thus you might be right in some ways, but I think one might be able to avoid all these things from the start. Has the idea of choosing sword or dagger before a mission ever been discussed at the Dark Mod or was the short sword lobby too powerful?
New Horizon on 5/8/2008 at 04:37
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
Has the idea of choosing sword or dagger before a mission ever been discussed at the Dark Mod or was the short sword lobby too powerful?
I wouldn't exactly say anyone had to lobby for the short sword. It was a pretty straight forward decision. No dagger. When we release, community members can create animations for a dagger in their own missions, but we don't plan to make it an official part of the mod. It just doesn't feel right to us.
The dagger in TDS 'could' have been used to help Garrett block attacks, like a short sword, but the only function of the dagger in TDS was to kill AI....and that's my issue with it. Garrett was reduced to being a petty stab'n'slash criminal. That's where the 'game world' dagger differed from the real world dagger. Sure, you can use a dagger to block attacks in real life, but it wasn't used in such a way in the TDS game world.
In any case, we didn't feel it was appropriate to make it any easier to kill an AI in TDM, so we chose to equip the player with a short sword to deflect attacks. It suits the character, and honors the philosophy of the original games.
