Vasquez on 5/5/2013 at 12:15
Quote Posted by faetal
I think it just happens regardless.
Of course it would happen regardless, but patriarchy affects on how it happens. Basically sex and trying to get as much of it as we can is in some form present in almost everything we do, deep down in subconscious hidden under "better" reasons for doing things. But arguing that how it makes us behave is purely biological, and somehow completely detached from age-old tradition of patriarchy, is so silly that the burden of proof is on you.
Kolya on 5/5/2013 at 12:37
Even if at some point you have felt pressured to shave your back, it doesn't quite compare to the comprehensive historical methodical objectification of women. And the fact that you didn't perceive that pressure on yourself to shave as societal pressure but describe it as your own decision and free will (although it obviously wasn't), to make yourself more appealing, is the result of your self-perception as a man. Because otherwise you would have to admit that the little bit of pressure put on you as a man, already made you cave, and you couldn't avoid seeing how the much bigger pressure on women to style their bodies affects their "free decision".
Dia on 5/5/2013 at 13:31
Don't even get me started on the subject of the objectification of women. Rather than go off on a rant (fueled in part by caffeine-deprivation), I thought I'd share this:
(
http://s29.photobucket.com/user/Diah_/media/Hairyhairyman.jpg.html)
Inline Image:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/Diah_/Hairyhairyman.jpgI like his boots.
My former sister-in-law (Pam) stopped shaving her legs years ago (armpits as well). She and I were talking about the insane pressure society's dictates can impose on women and I have to say I admire her fortitude and strength of character in choosing to pretty much tell 'society' to go fuck itself. That same day, while walking towards an outdoor cafe where we intended to lunch, she received rude stares and snarky comments from passersby about her hairy legs. I was dismayed and incensed, but she remained calm and merely ignored the stares and comments. Pam said that the most insidious aspect of the whole society dictating trends thing is that so many women believe it's their decision to shave; that they shave their body hair because they 'want to', because they think it looks sexy. And then she asked, 'Just whom do they think they're trying to be sexy for?' I couldn't respect and love this woman more if I tried.
Jason Moyer on 5/5/2013 at 14:57
I'm sure people are lining up to bang that dude all day long.
SubJeff on 5/5/2013 at 15:15
The thing is Dia, it's not purely a societal thing, it's somewhat hard wired. Those people may have been jerks but it's as hard wired as liking nice smells.
faetal on 5/5/2013 at 16:11
It's not like I'm even saying women aren't objectified - they sure as shit are. However, the idea that shaving body hair originates from the patriarchy hasn't really been shown. What people do and don't find sexy is tied into culture. Sure culture is affected by patriarchy to a huge extent but it is also influenced by memetic input driven by trend. Otherwise, we can argue that ANY trend which is tied to how people find other people attractive or not is the fault of patriarchy.
If women at some point started shaving their legs and lots of men decided that this was to their liking, then that is not the same as men deciding that women should shave their legs to do as they're told or whatever. Taking "what men tend to find x attractive" (as in >7 out of 10 people would respond 'yes' to) and deciding that any female behaviour which takes this into consideration = patriarchy, but ignoring any equivalent in the opposite direction is not intellectually honest.
The onus is on me to prove what exactly? I'm not the one who is asserting causality.
gunsmoke on 5/5/2013 at 16:51
I am a complete and total queer and shave my armpits and chest. I don't even wear deodorant, I have never had B.O. in my life. Even after camping in the woods for a week. I had a conversation with my chef at work last night about this, and he thinks that people only start needing antiperspirant/deo once they began to regularly use it. Chefs aren't known for being anywhere near sane, however.
Kolya on 5/5/2013 at 19:23
Quote Posted by gunsmoke
I am a complete and total queer and shave my armpits and chest.
Did I miss your coming out? Well shit. And congrats. :D
Quote Posted by gunsmoke
I don't even wear deodorant
Okay, now you're making me think that "queer" has some very different meaning in your neck of woods.
SubJeff on 6/5/2013 at 06:37
Hu
Quote Posted by gunsmoke
I am a complete and total queer and shave my armpits and chest. I don't even wear deodorant, I have never had B.O. in my life. Even after camping in the woods for a week. I had a conversation with my chef at work last night about this, and he thinks that people only start needing antiperspirant/deo once they began to regularly use it. Chefs aren't known for being anywhere near sane, however.
I used to be like you - sweating very little, especially compared to other people after sports. And I had odorless feet, no matter what. I used to be baffled by other kids who had smelly feet at highschool. I think I stayed that way all through uni, my first real job, going back to uni and then BAM. Welcome to sweatville. I think it's a combination of age and weight that has done it. I used to be about 160 pounds/73kg.
demagogue on 6/5/2013 at 08:18
Quote Posted by Kolya
Did I miss your coming out? Well shit. And congrats. :D
Okay, now you're making me think that "queer" has some very different meaning in your neck of woods.
In English, in America anyway, the connotation of queer literally means different from everybody else, usually in some vaguely taboo way. Being gay is one brand of queer, but far from the only one. But I think it's the part the rest of the world picked up the word for.
And Gunny has a girlfriend... And a child... So my magic 8-ball tells me coming out isn't in his future.
Edit: As for me, while I'm probably pretty normal for most things, I've never used shaving cream. I just use water, or just shave dry. I never really saw the need and it's never been an issue for me.
