Renault on 4/6/2004 at 19:28
The City portions of the game give it a bigger feel, but the levels are still noticeably smaller. Playing time isn't really an indication. It probably takes (for example) more time to sneak through a 10x10 room with 4 guards than it would in a 20x20 room with the same number of guards.
Abysmal on 4/6/2004 at 20:04
Well the combined zones in each mission feel as big as most other Thief missions to me, save some of the really huge ones. The time comment was just an afterthought, but you make a good point. I guess that's why it's taking longer than Thief II.
Renault on 4/6/2004 at 20:28
Yeah, there were a lot of big open spaces in T1/T2 where you just cruised along and wouldn't encounter anybody, but it made the world feel more realistic (to me). Far Cry is like this (feel like I've been pumping that game a ton lately, oh well). Meanwhile, everything is so compact in T3. There's a guard or servant (or two) every ten feet, it seems.
And the loading zones, as much as I didn't want to admit it, are just killers. Goodbye immersion. You just can't define a "level" as two areas separated by a loading zone, imo.
Sayne on 4/6/2004 at 20:31
I have 4 equally bad, worst things.
1. Ugly in-engine cutscenes/SEEING GARRETT'S FACE
2. Level size, both missions and the castrated feel of the city-sections.
3. Stupid blackjacking (they align themselves with the stinking blackjack whenever you click to knock them out! That's horrid.)
4. No briefing cutscenes.
(I still love the game)
aville on 4/6/2004 at 21:10
I suppose my answer registers to the "other" option. When I first started the demo and shortly the full game, I was well aware of the games shortcomings. Although I will never forgive/forget about them, what I didn't expect was every little thing missing to become so apparent during the game. What disappointed me massively was the loss of the magic word: "feeling".
Remember how Thief 1 or 2 would suck you from the first level (particularly T1) and they would just feel right and they'd instantly get you hooked? In DS, everything was sort of up and down. ISA for me did the grave mistake of replacing or just messing with everything, instead of expanding, or giving a fallback option for those features that were debatable. There were a lot of mini shocks in DS. Too many of them in fact. After that pathetic tutorial level (which I found offensive), just when I'd try to get in the atmosphere of the game, sth would put me off, then the same thing would happen in cycles. I would constantly marvel at some massive improvements compared to the previous games, then the next instant I would get annoyed at the loss of yet another feature that surprisingly the new game all of a sudden "couldn't do".
I'd say the great "benefits" that the game got as a result of that parallel (?) improvement with the fucking Xbox were all too apparent for me to neglect. Even on expert, it felt easier. When I felt the original ones would sort of demand from the player to massively commit himself in order to get the hang of the game, DS would take the player from the hand or try to explain him what to do. I mean, when I heard a guard saying sth like "I heard something. Maybe someone made that noise. I can't see anyone. Probably he's hiding in the dark. I think I'll go check that shadow on the corner", I felt as if he was explaining to me how the game works and what to do. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if he was to add "and if someone is really there, you should move away from your initial position so that I won't find you when I search". Ridiculous stuff.
The fact that it used that cursed IW engine, let alone IW's existence and it's subsequent fiasco, didn't help either. It all started with the sharp controls of the previous games, or should I say the absence of them. That will probably sound very bold to some, but i never stopped thinking of that game as a DX2 that had a sex change and something at the process went wrong at 95%. It sounded like Thief but not quite, it tried to look like Thief but didn't quite did it, it tried to play like Thief but wasn't 100% there. It felt slightly awry. I blame the engine.
I think all in all, DS is a shining example of how much important those things that lots of us thought as "trivial, that wouldn't affect the gameplay" can become, when lots of them are either missing or are badly implemented. When I finished it, it left me with a "what if" question. What if there wasn't a console version, etc...Not that bad, but definitely the worst of the three.
Sayne on 4/6/2004 at 22:37
Quote Posted by aville
I suppose my answer registers to the "other" option. When I first started the demo and shortly the full game, I was well aware of the games shortcomings. Although I will never forgive/forget about them, what I didn’t expect was every little thing missing to become so apparent during the game. What disappointed me massively was the loss of the magic word: "feeling".
Remember how Thief 1 or 2 would suck you from the first level (particularly T1) and they would just feel right and they’d instantly get you hooked? In DS, everything was sort of up and down. ISA for me did the grave mistake of replacing or just messing with everything, instead of expanding, or giving a fallback option for those features that were debatable. There were a lot of mini shocks in DS. Too many of them in fact. After that pathetic tutorial level (which I found offensive), just when I’d try to get in the atmosphere of the game, sth would put me off, then the same thing would happen in cycles. I would constantly marvel at some massive improvements compared to the previous games, then the next instant I would get annoyed at the loss of yet another feature that surprisingly the new game all of a sudden "couldn’t do".
I’d say the great "benefits" that the game got as a result of that parallel (?) improvement with the fucking Xbox were all too apparent for me to neglect. Even on expert, it felt easier. When I felt the original ones would sort of demand from the player to massively commit himself in order to get the hang of the game, DS would take the player from the hand or try to explain him what to do. I mean, when I heard a guard saying sth like "I heard something. Maybe someone made that noise. I can’t see anyone. Probably he’s hiding in the dark. I think I’ll go check that shadow on the corner", I felt as if he was explaining to me how the game works and what to do. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit if he was to add "and if someone is really there, you should move away from your initial position so that I won’t find you when I search". Ridiculous stuff.
The fact that it used that cursed IW engine, let alone IW’s existence and it’s subsequent fiasco, didn’t help either. It all started with the sharp controls of the previous games, or should I say the absence of them. That will probably sound very bold to some, but i never stopped thinking of that game as a DX2 that had a sex change and something at the process went wrong at 95%. It sounded like Thief but not quite, it tried to look like Thief but didn’t quite did it, it tried to play like Thief but wasn’t 100% there. It felt slightly awry. I blame the engine.
I think all in all, DS is a shining example of how much important those things that lots of us thought as "trivial, that wouldn’t affect the gameplay" can become, when lots of them are either missing or are badly implemented. When I finished it, it left me with a "what if" question. What if there wasn’t a console version, etc…Not that bad, but definitely the worst of the three.
Well said... a bit too harsh for my liking, but very nicely said.
ZylonBane on 4/6/2004 at 22:53
Golly, thanks for quoting that entire frickin post. I almost didn't see your little one-line reply at the end!
:tsktsk:
Creep Vassalage on 4/6/2004 at 22:58
I very much agree with Aville: ISA seems to have engaged in a nickel-and-dime streamlining/"taking the game to the next level" mentality that ultimately left TDS bereft of the atmosphere and feeling of the first two games.
The level sizes alone dictated so many changes to the game that I had to pick that as the worst feature, but the choppy player movement, weak and horribly paced story, the frazzled mission structure and cutscene handling, lack of water (how ironic given that this is the game that introduces an ancient sea race), and inconsistent level design quality are all big negatives. There are also many little, specific things that are difficult to generalize about but which nonetheless had a collectively bad impact on the game.
ZylonBane on 4/6/2004 at 23:07
I miss the broadcast power equipment. Seems like the city will just feel so... generic without them. Anyone who's played the full game care to comment?
Ahris on 4/6/2004 at 23:22
For me it's the dumbed down sneaking. Crouching or creeping automatically removes all sound you make. It removes the challenge for me.
I can live with all the other flaws, even load zones, but i can't accept that the challenge of sneaking was removed from a stealth game. :P
