SiO2 on 3/8/2007 at 13:06

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I wouldn't dream of opening a saved game in Dromed, giving myself 1000 flashbombs, resaving, then partying down on them there undeads. :ebil:

Zillameth on 3/8/2007 at 14:54

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I think when a mission "does everything wrong" and manages to be good anyway, it just means the author is very talented. :) Such cases tend to dodge all attempts on classification, though.

It seems worth noting, that the term "does not fit" is, in this case, relative. It means: "people who like Thief seem less inclined to like this mode of gameplay". In other words, the set of people who like Thief and the set of people who like this kind of gameplay, are largely exlusive.This means it's not necessarily a good design decision to merge this mode of gameplay into Thief, because people who like the game aren't going to enjoy this particular kind of missions, and people who like this kind of gameplay, aren't going to enjoy the rest of game. Hence, these two things "don't fit" together.

Same with "inferior" and "needs improvement". They mean "people don't like this kind of gameplay and we need to consider whether we can do something about it".

There is one possibility I forgot about. Some gameplay modes are "spices" - they improve flavour, but they are easy to overdo.

Of course, these are just hypotheses. I asked my question, because I'd like to find out if they are true.




Not yet. There is this nasty psychological monster called cognitive dissonance I need to try not to summon. And I still need more answers, more, more, more!

Zillameth on 6/8/2007 at 18:06

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Since it looks there won't more answers, here are my own, as promised.

Burglary - 3. It's run of the mill. I like them, because I like Thief, which means I like all the little things it's made of. Burglary implements them, but does little else. There is a certain pleasure in sightseeing and collecting, but it's no longer a challenge. To be truly excited, I need something extra.

Infiltration - 4. This is one of those "extras". Infiltration not only implements standard gameplay elements, it makes them work together. I like puzzles it creates, although caution is needed not to make them too "artificial". Sabotage at Soulforge crosses this line sometimes.

Overt Infiltration - 4. I like them, because they potentialy add a whole new dimension to the game, and they are not as annoying as ghothing can sometimes be. I agree with the notion that Overt Infiltraiton gives the opportunity to see game world as a natural living place. Exploring such places is very rewarding.

Undetectable Infiltration - 3. I enjoy a good ghosting mission. A mission, that is a regular Burglary, except it uses FailOnSee, is not a good ghosting mission. A good ghosting mission should take FailOnSee into account. I like Shoalsgate very much, because it does. I hate some FMs, becuase they don't, and it makes them tedious.

Exploration - 4. Yes, I like them, like pretty much everyone, but Exploration missions tend to be one-sided. They have a lot to show, but they don't give much opportunity for interaction. I prefer when games are interactive. Still, Trail of Blood is among my favourites.

Tail - 2. They can be exciting, but they give the player virtually no freedom. Freedom is a very important aspect of Thief, so I feel Tail missions are somewhat inferior. They can be a good experience, though, if they provide strong narrative.

Escape - 4. They are an additional challenge, and that's what I like. They make me feel I'm in danger without making me feel helpless. They also make me think outside the boundaries of what I'm used to. "How do I blackjack this guard, when I have no blackjack? Hmm, how about that crate over there..." (it's just an abstract example - whether you can actuallly knock a guard out with a crate is another question).

Ambush - 3. In truth, I haven't yet seen a proper Ambush mission. Kidnap does it, but isn't very tough. You can simply charge Cavador and his bodyguards with a gas arrow and a flashbomb, and it's going to work. I think this is a big opportunity for designers.

Loot Hunt - 1. Hate it. I really appreciate it when things can be explained by the means of reason, and it's not reasonable, when there is, for instance, a ring on the top of a bookshelf. Besides, thorough searches are boring.

Oldschool Adventure - 3. It's very difficult to design a puzzle, that would be challenging, but not frustrating. I tolerate a reasonable amount of frustration, as long as I get the "how could I not think of that" revelation when I finally find the solution. This is where many designers fail. I like good puzzles nevertheless, but I think it's safer and easier to design puzzles within given game's gameplay language. For example, box stacking puzzles in HalfLife 2 use "gameplay language", because they use game physics, the same wich the player uses all the time. So when you find a barrier and a set of boxes, stacking them comes naturally. You know and understand your goal and your options. Oldschool Adventure puzzles are much more obscure, and learning their inner language often becomes a guesswork.

Pharaoh's Tomb - 3. I like traps! The problem is, they require a very good physics engine. None of the three Thief games have this. I've seen some really good ideas in FMs, but too often they require very high precision or rely on "unstable" features, such as mantling.

Cityscape - 5. Not surprisingly, this is my favourite. It uses some of the best features of other modes. There is the "living place" feeling, the strong theme of discovery, a lot of variety and a reasonable amount of additional challenges. As much as I hate instant respawn, I think walking around the City in TDS was great. If only those districts were bigger...

Cross-country - 4. I enjoy the "how to get there" challenge very much, especially when some inventiveness is required, or when the flow of game leads me into unexpected situations. And I think this mode is not yet fully exploited. Unfortunately, two factors limit its use: lack of good physics and unstability of some features. When I'm forced to remember to take a half-step back before mantling, it's a bug, not a feature.

Undead Invasion - 1. I hate horrors. They just don't work for me. Even the Cradle didn't work, I wasn't scared in the slightest. I only had this unpleasant feeling you get when an old mean aunt of yours comes to visit, and you know she hates you, but you have to take care of her and be nice to her for a whole day anyway. Zombies are not even dangerous, because they are so slow. They are just icky.

Robot Invasion - 3. I like the variety and challenge they introduce. My only complaint about them is purely aesthetical: they are noisy and they speak with Karras' voice. I don't feel they're out of place, although in this particular setting the Mechanist inventions in general are clearly very much ahead of their time. This makes them hard to rationalise, and I like rationalising.

Monster Invasion - 3. No complaints here. Again, I like the variety. The only exception is that I hate those big spiders, but I don't know why (the little ones don't bother me, and I don't have any fear or dislike of real-life spiders or insects). I actually kind of like the burricks, and when I play Thief for too long, I'm starting to think frogbeasts are cute. I didn't like the Kurshok too much, but I wouldn't mind if someone came up with a new species.

Lancer on 18/8/2007 at 13:38

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All of the above in no particular order with the exception of Robots and mechanical detection devices. Perhaps the reason I didn't love Thief 2 as much as I did TDP.