Beleg Cúthalion on 30/9/2008 at 15:30

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I always compare this strange organization called "Hammerites" (apparently both religion and it's only order) to the Templars or other military orders. They were given (or could buy) certain pieces of land/property which they administrated, collected tax etc. and had AFAIK at least a few rights concerning justice. I guess that's basically what we find in The City. Maybe they have the right to take over trials linked to heresy, like the Catholic Church had, but I believe the Hammerites would not have to hand convicted heretics over to the secular powers, they'd rather punish them themselves. :p But this privilege would certainly lead them to believe execute their beliefs and arrest any other villains while ignoring the secular powers/City Watch/Baron. I hope jtr7 can provide some evidence (Cragscleft or Ramirez readables?, in any way some of the TDS greetings between guards and Hammerites) that there is a certain amount of friction between City Watch and Hammerites regarding the competent jurisdiction.

Solabusca on 30/9/2008 at 17:10

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I'll disagree slightly here.

I don't think that the Hammerites have any LEGAL authority to perform the acts they do - I'll note evidence later. I do, on the other hand, beleive that they have a traditional authority/role in 'policing' the faithful of the City. And the Pagan Unfaithful, but that's another matter.

I think that the Hammerites, at certain points in the City's history, took on the task of punishing those sinners that they came across - perhaps during a particularly sinful era, or perhaps in tandem with the Watch - but since they have chosen to continue on, punishing the wicked. Sort of like an army of witch-hunters or militant clergy - they might claim that they are performing their duty as implements of the Builder's will, and they (even in the weakened state of the Dark Project era) have the strength of arms to prevent the City from acting against them in too direct a capacity; even to the point of plucking previously exonerated prisoners from the street (cf. the copy of a City news report found in Constantine's bedchambers, TDP)

ETA: In short, they have no actual AUTHORITY beyond the spiritual one they have claimed as the Builder's hands on the Tellurian plane.

.j.

Beleg Cúthalion on 30/9/2008 at 19:33

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That's what I think – there must at least be some justification for it, and be it the heretics/inquisition thing I mentioned which they (over)interpreted to refer also to fences and what else you find in Cragscleft. The reason I mentioned the Catholic Church is that they usually questioned and sentenced the delinquents and handed them over to the state for execution so the Church herself would not kill anyone.* Plus, Thief has most of its historical links to European history, so drawing parallels between the two cannot be too bad. And one more point, Hammerites meddling in City affairs with half-baked justifications is absolutely adequate for our City. :p


*Another pretty little circumvention is that priests are not allowed to shed blood, that's why some soldier clerics used blunt maces in battles (AFAIK there was one bishop involved in Hastings, but let some Briton explain that). Unfortunately there are Hammerites with swords, although rarely seen (unless of course the intro movie was old stuff and the Hammer haunts have swords as a sign of desecration... which would on the other side imply that there were peaceful elements in the Builder's religion, and I'd really like to give such things depth, but that's far away from canon already).

jtr7 on 8/10/2008 at 20:36

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I don't know. It's all up in the air.


M6CLIP.STR: "THE CITY TRIBUNE

A woman from Shalebridge who was acquitted of charges of robbery in a city court last week has been kidnapped by members of the Order of the Hammer. The woman is apparently being held in squalid conditions in Cragscleft prison. Whereas the Hammerites did not cite any official reason for the incarceration, one of the Order was quoted, saying, 'She hath sinned in The Builder's eyes, and thy slothful laws hath touched her not at all.'"

Syndef on 9/10/2008 at 00:10

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I imagine it's something like walking down the streets of your neighborhood and meeting a very buff priest that's carrying a shotgun.