Beleg Cúthalion on 10/6/2009 at 07:59
Since you defined Thief primarily by gameplay standards in the Escapist article thread I think I cannot convince you easily that content, story and believability are for me some sort of "level design" as well. The prettiest hallway with shadows and clever guard patrols is dull to me if I was shown a briefing like: "Hi Garrett, I'm one icognito guy and want to to break into this heavily-guarded-for-no-reason mansion to steal a golden toilet brush. Fine?" - "Fine."
Second, I think nonlinearity just for the sake of it is ridiculous, too, if it starts pushing reason aside. If there is a throne room with just one door I don't want to have a secret trap door under a carpet which no one noticed only because the FM author wanted to show off with a second way in. I don't know if that nonlinearity exaggeration is in fact common in FMs, but your post gave me the impression. I haven't played Heist Society yet, but both LotP and Soulforge had more... well, soul and believability to them than Thieves' Highway and Lord Alan's factory. I want (fan) missions to be organic, to fit into the universe and not to be ripped-out crazy adventures. They might be cool in their way and that's right for e.g. Rowena's Curse or Omnious Bequest as well as the Calendra missions, but to me they don't feel to be completely embedded into the Thief universe – and for this kind of immersion I need more than a few shadows and a light gem at the bottom of the screen.
To make it clear: I don't think FMs missed the mark in general or that all of them a far away from what I call Thief, but if I was the whole community I wouldn't be so damn sure about my own great skills.
Kin on 10/6/2009 at 08:31
The FM: Disorientation is a mission I haven't finished yet but I think thief 4 devs should take a look at it. It is new, pleasantly complex makes you think allot, it is massive and generally agrees with thief style.
SlyFoxx on 10/6/2009 at 12:35
Of course many FMs strayed from the original thief pattern. Thank The Builder they did or we never would have had Purah's "Calendra" or frobber's "Keeper".
Sure the meat of how to design Thief is contained in the OMs but if there's one area where the T4 devs need to look towards FMs for inspiration it would be how to build The City. There is not one OM that can hold a candle to the citys built by DrK, Purah and recently Melan. (Granted the OM devs were working within complexity restrictions that FM devs could ignore.)
nickie on 10/6/2009 at 19:55
Quote Posted by Kin
The FM: Disorientation is a mission I haven't finished yet but I think thief 4 devs should take a look at it.
Which is exactly what I said to someone yesterday. This is a fine example of a level that you can probably complete in half an hour but would miss out on 4 or 5 hours of delight.
This is Thief to me - sorry if I offend anyone - the ability to do as little or as much (everything) as I please is one of the most precious things to me about the game. Just a wonderful example of that (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126717) Open World that fett was talking about.
And it must be the first fm where people are posting pics of how and where to go.
SubJeff on 10/6/2009 at 22:37
I think it's time I got onto reinstalling Thief 2 and getting it working in Vista isn't it? I've missed out on too much.
Too Much Coffee on 10/6/2009 at 23:45
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I think it's time I got onto reinstalling Thief 2 and getting it working in Vista isn't it? I've missed out on too much.
I recently did that. I took me almost an entire day of searching the boards and internet and getting it to work. Always one thing after another. But I finally got it all working. The effort was worth it and I've been enjoying some great FM's that I've missed out on over recent years.
nickie on 11/6/2009 at 08:28
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I think it's time I got onto reinstalling Thief 2 and getting it working in Vista isn't it? I've missed out on too much.
Personally? Yes I think so. FMs just continue to get better and better. I didn't have any problems at all getting T2 to work on Vista. But then, all I did was just copy and paste the folder from my XP pc.
Snake on 23/6/2009 at 02:43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beleg Cúthalion.Since you defined Thief primarily by gameplay standards in the Escapist article thread I think I cannot convince you easily that content, story and believability are for me some sort of "level design" as well. The prettiest hallway with shadows and clever guard patrols is dull to me if I was shown a briefing like: "Hi Garrett, I'm one icognito guy and want to to break into this heavily-guarded-for-no-reason mansion to steal a golden toilet brush. Fine?" - "Fine."
I absolutely agree with this point. I think first and foremost, the developers must get to grips with creating a great story, otherwise there is no game. TDP looks dated now, but the amazing plot, cutscenes and atmosphere make the game as playable today as it was in 1999. I will NOT be interested in Thief 4 if there is no Garrett, or a changed setting, or just some cheesy uninspired plot. TDS gets a lot of bashing around here, but I still believe the developers did a pretty decent job of retaining a lot of the original thief atmosphere, and the plot and cutscenes were great.
I think this point of "should developers refer to FMs or not" is fairly redundant. They are very unlikely to play through any FMs. I think they are going to pay a lot of attention to the community's thoughts and suggestions but being realistic, they will not have the time to play through FMs built on a level design program that they wont be using and which is very outdated.
The community is blessed with many talented authors who dedicate their time to providing top quality missions, and for this they should be commended. I am even working on my own FM now and I appreciated the hard work that is involved. But I do not believe that these should be in some way a message to the developers of Thief 4 that "this is what we want, play these FMs." Many FMs are extremely large, complex, and contain so many custom objects and voices,etc., that they become very unfamiliar and far removed from the Thief universe. Examples of this include FMs like the Inverted Manse which was mentioned in the discussion earlier. An amazing effort for which the author should be commended. But I do not feel it reflects the experience of playing OMs, it is a different animal altogether. Besides, wasn't the author of this FM recruited for the TDS development team? Here we can see an example of a development team observing the quality of an FM and incorporating it into TDS but the community seems largely against TDS, so perhaps this is not the way to go.
