Dante on 7/11/2008 at 00:19
Which Thief game do you think has the best plot, and why? I vote TDS. Sure, its gameplay pales in comparison to T1 and T2, but I think they really hit the nail on the head with the storyline. The things that did it for me were (a) exposure of the Keepers' flaws and (b) a slow-to-build but suspenseful storyline that plays out like a great work of fiction -- oh, and the climax is, in my opinion, nothing less than explosive. I do feel that the final solution was a bit weak, with the artifacts in all, but the mystery of Gamall, Drept, and the Cradle were outstanding.
You?
june gloom on 7/11/2008 at 00:59
I second Thief 3. Yeah, gameplay wise it's not as good as the first two games, but I felt the plot was more coherent, minus Terri Brosius' occasional mistakes. Thief 2's plot is really really simple (I think Digi might've summarized it to hilarious results not too long ago) and Thief 1's plot takes several missions for it to even really get started.
Jarvis on 7/11/2008 at 01:33
TDP hands down. Period.
TMA was weakened inherently by the way the put it together, by making missions then tying a story around it.
DS... I rue the day that game came out. I tried so hard to like it and yet it came up wanting on all fronts. It's so completely different from the original two that you can't rightly call it part of the same series. I speak in particular about the Keepers, which played the defining role in the story. Simply put, the Keeper order of DS was *not* the same Keeper order of the originals.
Anyone who played the games sequentially knows it, and it's doubly true for those of us who were fans of the original long before DS came out. Be honest! How many of you scratched your heads upon entering the Keeper Compound for the first time, to find *mages* with *wands* roaming about? Glyphs, as far as the originals lead us to believe, were really no different from say... hieroglyphs from ancient Egypt. Mysterious and misunderstood, yes. Granting of magical powers, what?
The only comparison I can draw to this bastardization of the Thief storyline is the highlander movies. Immortals, got it... cut off the heads, okay. Immortals are space aliens... wait, what?
DS had a couple of moments of glory, granted. I still can't bring myself to return to those moments though, because of all the garbage I have to wade through to get there.
-Enforcers, the very antithesis of anything resembling the Keepers.
-Terrible dialog not only from the primary characters, but down right lunacy from supporting characters. "Hey Garrett, how's the thieving?" Yeah, thanks Heartless Perry, hows the fencing? Epic fail.
-Garrett suddenly willing to run around doing Keepers dirty work, all for what turn out to be pretty flimsy promises of retarded mean-nothing "prophecy".
I could go on and on with this crap.
Come on guys, it makes me giggle with joy to think of a storyline centered around Keeper corruption. Did we really have to stoop to the storytelling capacity of the average D&D gamemaster? Tsk tsk Ion Storm. I expected better from the company that brought us the intellectual stimulation that is Deus Ex. Fail.
Dante on 7/11/2008 at 01:56
Wow. I hate to say it, but Jarvis's post is made full of win. But I don't think, ah, commercialization of the Keepers is enough to condemn the plot.
Actually, the whole purpose of the Keepers was never crystal-clear in my head.
jtr7 on 7/11/2008 at 02:41
In and of itself, taking them separately, TDS had the most complete story structure. As the final part of a trilogy, it blew it on many major levels while doing fantastic on many smaller levels. The story seems more Hollywood movie than novel, to me. I wasn't as surprised by the main story as I was by what was in the margins. I love the bits that stay true to the TDP roots.
The TDP story, separate from the game, but as the first part of a trilogy, does its part to introduce characterization, The City, the Thief Universe, laying down the foundation for later when the reality of what is going on explodes. That climactic cutscene is raved about more than any other (except the final cutscene of TDS, which is more intentionally confusing than mind-blowing). The remainder of the trilogy beyond that is keeping the ball of corruption clean-out rolling. It has, to me, the most interesting marriage of story, arc, and game-play overall. It is the most literary, in that the game is secondary to a story that is more like a novel than a movie. And I love it for that. I love how so many industry rules were broken.
TMA is too hacked together in the middle. A rough draft that needs editing; HOWEVER, I love the ideas that were thrown in, even if they didn't work out, and I have no bias against what the devs were trying to do. It seems like an experiment interrupted. Being a great fan of ideas, I love TMA. In fact, I'm biased towards TMA, primarily because it was my first Thief experience...the gateway drug to taffing and Thiefy fanfic and FMs and TTLG. It made me want MORE!
Twist on 7/11/2008 at 04:51
These posts remind me how I feel like the ultimate Thief game still hasn't been made. Thief is probably my favorite overall gaming franchise and fictional game world, but I feel like each individual game within it is too flawed to be considered a masterpiece by itself.
The collective of the three games and all the brilliant fan missions make the Thief universe for me. But I have disappointments and frustrations with each individual game.
I lean toward TDP being my favorite plot, but I may lean that way mostly because of nostalgia.
The main plot arc doesn't really begin until 4 or 5 missions into it (or 5 or 6 if you play TG) and the core plot boils down to the clichéd "defeat the big evil foozle".
I always wished the Trickster wasn't presented in such a demonic way. From later games we don't perceive the Pagans as typical one dimensional bad guys, but that's really how they're presented in TDP.
Tannar on 7/11/2008 at 06:24
I'd have to say that I agree (at least to some degree) with everything that has been said so far pretty much. I have mixed feelings about TDS. As jtr said, it has the most structured story and I loved many things about it but hated just as many more. But even though the story/plot was more clear cut, I felt less immersed in the story - mainly because of the trekking back and forth through the city portals. Way to break the mood! :p
TMA had a clear plot too, eventually but there were too many unanswered questions and it seemed a bit hodge-podge. Also, while some aspects were more fun than TDP, in terms of story I didn't feel as immersed as I did in TDP.
I think TDP has to be it for me. It does not have the most well-developed plot perhaps but it has (to me) the most engaging plot. I was swept away by the FEEL of the story in TDP. I had no idea what to expect next and that was the best feeling of all! It was most definitely not predictable. And TDP had to accomplish more than just carry you along through a plot, it also had to establish Garrett and the other characters and the universe they lived in. And it succeeded in my opinion. I was completely and utterly captivated.
demagogue on 7/11/2008 at 06:31
Dark Project, easy. It was inspired and story-driven start to finish.
Andarthiel on 7/11/2008 at 06:44
Story-wise TDP was the best(because of the Pagans,love 'em:D ) but Gameplay-wise TMA was the best.
Jarvis on 7/11/2008 at 14:08
I a little taken aback by the notion that DS had the most structured story. What, because it had the most happening? Granted, TPD had a very simple plot. In essence, there was only one plot movement stretched out over the whole game.
And it was done well!
That's a structured story by my definition. The only thing that can be said about DS is that more happened. In my opinion, it was structured very poorly. In order to justify the events of the story, they had to do more than just portray the Keepers as having "lost their balance". They had to make them all look like absolute buffoons. Especially Orland.
The story is propped up on noticeably flimsy premises. To be totally honest, TMA is the same way after Viktoria enters the story, but especially near the end.
That's why TDP get my vote. Sure, it's simple. Don't tell me it's not well structured though. If there's any complaint, it would have to be that it was *too* structured, and that it could have gotten away with more happening. I'm perfectly happy with it though. The way they delivered it made the cutscenes, which are all the most pivotal moments in the game, all extremely powerful and moving.
In other words, TPD made me care. TMA followed the original's style enough to allow me to continue caring through some fairly flimsy stuff. DS, despite me overwhelming desire to continue to care, left me rolling my eyes, suspending disbelief, and ultimately turning my back on it.
The best that can be said about it is that it does have a few micro-storylines that were fun to discover in individual levels. All of the Thief games have that though, the originals did it better.
RIP - sensible Keepers who actually used stealth instead of glyphs (How can they call Garrett their greatest acolyte, if none of them stealth and Garrett never uses a wand or magical glyphs?)
RIP - Pagans that get me excited. Oh the butchered dialog. When the Trickster spoke with "pagan speak", it sent chills down my spine. When DS pagans did it, I wanted nothing more than to murder them all just to shut them up.
At least DS managed to keep the Hammers more or less intact. That's about the only aspect of Thief they didn't completely bungle in my opinion.
