Solabusca on 22/7/2007 at 22:27
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
If you've only played and didn't like Thief Deadly Shadows, it's likely you have higher standards than ToolFan.
... wait, is it time for the quarterly TDS-bashing? Damn it, I knew I forgot to mark it on my calendar.
Sadly, TDS is a good game. I say sadly, because it's not a GREAT game, like the first two. You could see the potential in it and some flashes of brilliance. You also get some very nice fan-service thrown in, but overall it does stand as an example of what can go wrong when the parent company gets too involved with the production.
.j.
Jah on 22/7/2007 at 22:53
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
You do know liking Deadly Shadows is a crime on these forums, don't you? It upsets the veterans.
Makes sense, I guess. This is the Through The
Looking Glass forum, so of course a Thief game that wasn't made by Looking Glass Studios has to be bad...
Jah on 22/7/2007 at 22:55
Quote Posted by Solabusca
Sadly, TDS is a good game. I say sadly, because it's not a GREAT game, like the first two. You could see the potential in it and some flashes of brilliance.
That's precisely how I feel about TDP... :)
ZylonBane on 22/7/2007 at 23:55
If it's not immediately apparent to you that TDP has an overwhelmingly more cohesive plot than TMA (aka "Garrett: Secret Agent Man"), seek medical attention.
Jah on 22/7/2007 at 23:57
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
If it's not immediately apparent to you that TDP has an overwhelmingly more cohesive plot than TMA (aka "Garrett: Secret Agent Man"), seek medical attention.
And if it isn't immediately apparent to you that the overall quality of a game is about more than just "overwhelmingly cohesive plot", you need even more medical attention.
Dia on 23/7/2007 at 00:21
jah; perhaps I gave the wrong impression. While I loved TDP, I absolutely adored TMA - my ultimate favorite of the three.
What I meant by TDS being too linear was that one didn't have the opportunities to explore that world (or levels) to the extent one could in the two previous games - you went from point A to point B, with no dallying allowed along the way. Some of us happen to like dallying a bit to explore. Each to their own and all that. Also, as you stated, you pretty much got your hand held throughout the entire game. Seeing as how TDS was originally created for another platform entirely it naturally had to be dumbed down, so when it was adapted for the PC, it was a serious disappointment for the die-hard, hard core Thief fans who preferred more freedom in their gameplay (and who happened to like the rope arrows, more well hidden loot, brandishing a sword not a toothpick, and being able to swim).
TDS did have its good points (graphics, textures, & lighting were definitely topnotch), however, in the opinion of many, it really doesn't live up to the higher standards set by the first two Thief games - face it; TDP & TMA were new and original and innovative (once again, just mho). Just because someone prefers one Thief game over the other two doesn't make them wrong. Personal preferences, etc.
Jah on 23/7/2007 at 00:46
Quote Posted by Dia
What I meant by TDS being too linear was that one didn't have the opportunities to explore that world (or levels) to the extent one could in the two previous games - you went from point A to point B, with no dallying allowed along the way.
The levels in T3 are smaller than some of the levels in the previous two, so in that sense, there's less room to dally. But I still don't see what you mean by "no dallying allowed". You can still explore the area as much as you like - nobody's forcing you to do any objective the first opportunity you get.
Some of the missions (the Clocktower comes to mind) are pretty linear in layout, but in the vast majority of them, you're quite free to explore and search for loot as long as you like. Also the City between the missions offers you opportunities for free exploration that is completely optional.
Quote Posted by Dia
face it; TDP & TMA were new and original and innovative (once again, just mho).
TDP was original, because it was the game that pretty much invented the "first-person sneaker". TMA was essentially just more of the same (apart from minor engine tweaks, how much
new did TMA really add?), but it utilized the original ideas of TDP more efficiently and had better mission design, which makes it a better game in my book. But in terms of originality and innovativeness, I think BOTH sequels simply expanded on the existing ideas from TDP; there were no fundamentally
new things in either of them, even less in TMA than TDS.
Quote Posted by Dia
Just because someone prefers one Thief game over the other two doesn't make them wrong. Personal preferences, etc.
Oh, absolutely. I never claimed otherwise. Some others, however, seem to believe that there is The One And Only Absolute Truth About Thief.
imperialreign on 23/7/2007 at 01:33
As I've thought before . . . I absolutely loved TMA, mostly due to the expanse of the missions, combined with the classic TDP gameplay, and expanding a little more of game controls, TMA was, I think, the pinnacle of the series.
Although, I also have to give a lot of credit to TDS; graphically, it was far superior to the early installments, and AI was much more improved - but yet, AI was also lacking in some areas (IMO, being a little more experienced, it was a ton easier to avoid AI, plus they gave up the search too quick); and I really think how small the missions were really detracted from the overall game. It felt like TDS as a whole was too short compared to the early games, maybe because of how small the missions were. Maybe they would've felt longer if there wasn't loading screens between mission halves, but I felt that the loading screens, the mission size, and a few other aspects had more to do with the game was co-developed for the console.
If TDS was designed entirely for the PC like T1/T2 were, I think it would've been just as long, and just as involving as the original series.
jtr7 on 23/7/2007 at 01:42
When you realize just how much LGS accomplished in TDP with less people, less money, less, backing, less overall resources, and with that game engine.... I'm just blown away.
When you see how much more was available to the devs in creating TDS, you have to wonder how magical it was for the team while making TDP. There was more creative fire going on in the beginning. They didn't feel the magic right away, of course, but they did reach a point in the process where they all looked at each other and said "Hey! This isn't as bad as we thought!" When the devs--who had every right to be burnt out on the game--became fans themselves, they threw nearly everything back into making more.
If TDP is Star Wars: A New Hope, TDS is Revenge of the Sith. A technical marvel that finally finishes the story, but leaves fans of the originals scratching their heads, because it lacks the very essence that made them fans to begin with, which can hardly be put into words.
Unlike the usual negative responses about TDS's idiosyncrasies, veteran taffers actually enjoy many of the Dark Engine's idiosyncrasies. The Vault is filled with pages of fun on all the funny things one can find or make the engine do. So many surprises that brought smiles or astonishment--now mostly old-hat, but if you were there, you know what I mean. "Cool! I'm gonna have to go try that!" You won't hear nearly as much for TDS, even from fans--as much as TDS does offer. Although this is inviting attacks, we veterans have gotten loads more from LGS's Thiefs, than will ever be gotten from Deadly Shadows. And there're more goodies coming. They are the gifts that keep on giving. People still have no idea what LGS actually accomplished with so little material. Nowdays the most common complaints about the older games are either superficial or are concerned with "How do I make Thief work on my new computer?!? AARGH! I want to play my Thief so bad!"
To sum up: For both sides of the argument, if you don't get it, you won't get it. Lucky you, if you do.
Jah on 23/7/2007 at 01:44
Quote Posted by imperialreign
Although, I also have to give a lot of credit to TDS; graphically, it was far superior to the early installments, and AI was much more improved - but yet, AI was also lacking in some areas (IMO, being a little more experienced, it was a ton easier to avoid AI, plus they gave up the search too quick); and I really think how small the missions were really detracted from the overall game.
What bothered me the most about TDS, and what I felt really made the game too easy, was the availability of equipment. In the earlier Thief games, you never had too much of them, and had to carefully consider where to use them. In T3, it's much too easy to hoard equipment, put out every torch you see and toss gas bombs left and right.
As far as avoiding the AI is concerned, AI alertness is fairly easy to tweak by editing the "Difficulty" settings in the DEFAULT.INI file.
