Jah on 23/7/2007 at 01:52
Quote Posted by jtr7
Unlike the usual negative responses about TDS's idiosyncrasies, veteran taffers actually enjoy many of the Dark Engine's idiosyncrasies. The Vault is filled with pages of fun on all the funny things one can find or make the engine do. So many surprises that brought smiles or astonishment--now mostly old-hat, but if you were there, you know what I mean. You won't hear nearly as much for TDS, even from fans.
To be fair, the earlier Thief games have greatly benefited from the fact that they're easier to mod, which means there are far more FM's for T1/T2 than there are for T3, and some of the fans have been able to squeeze out even more from the Dark Engine than LGS ever did. If T3 was as easily - or more easily - moddable, fans probably would have come up with things that would have enhanced T3 gameplay to the extent where we could enjoy the benefits of the new engine without suffering from some of Ion Storm's design decisions. The continuing popularity of T1/T2 owes much to the fan community.
imperialreign on 23/7/2007 at 02:02
oh, I entirely agree . . . it may be coming up on 10 years now since we all got hold of TDP, but I still play it quite often, along with TMA and TDS.
IDK, I just feel that if the devs of TDS didn't have to worry about any focus on a console version, that extra energy put into the PC version could've put TDS into the same league as TDP/TMA. Granted, I loved TDS as much as the older games, it just felt like it was really missing in some areas - but, it wouldn't have felt that way if I didn't have the experience from the first two.
I'm really looking forward to The Dark Mod - if anything could re-kindle the inspiration and interest in the Thief series like how TDP fired us up, it probably can.
<asides> I'd really love to see the interest in the series fired up enough that a game company gets the balls to pursue a T4 - as much as T4 would have to be different from the 3 we have - I'd really love to see the series continue from an "endorsed" point of view. Sure, we'll keep the fires burning, but without a lot of new fans to the series, and with the classic games becoming hard and harder to get running on modern systems, how much longer until most of us start getting burnt out, y'know?
jtr7 on 23/7/2007 at 02:10
This is a continuation of my previous post, but I'll say this first: There are many fan-projects that have no direct connection to Fan Missions, or modding. The Encyclopaedia of the Thief Universe is being created out of love for the original games. It's being written knowing that it may be used in creating FM's and fanfic, but it's focus is Thief canon. All debate over continuity, loose ends, and outright mistakes will inform it. I've yet to play a single FM. Nor have I taken the time to learn DromEd, T3Ed, Anim8or, Terragen, or any of the other programs used to create or install FM's. My time is spent with the games and the game-files. I'm quite content with that, and this artificial world is bigger than anyone knew.
My Addendum to my previous post:
I also wanna throw it out here that the LGS games are the reason this forum exists. (Clears throat) If you post on these forums, sounding like you're disrespecting LGS's games--instead of just stating honestly that you simply cannot appreciate what it means to those of us who were positively impacted by TDP/Gold and TMA, who's lives were positively changed forever (marriage, career, etc.)--you're playing with fire.:angel: The former LGS employees are virtual family--at least, virtual aunts and uncles. It hurt us to see them struggle to make Deadly Shadows. We all wanted closure for the series, but not at the expense of everything the games meant to us.
Before TDS, many of us were so happy to find these forums when we just had to have more Thief. We love it here. We veterans were here when it looked as though there would never be a Thief 3. We knew that without LGS another Thief would suffer.
Going through The Vault, and all the archives, and digging through all the files that the games are made of, I'm in renewed awe of the Thief Universe as a whole. Especially when I see, and recognize, how many attempts there were to bring the old into the new.
Dia on 23/7/2007 at 03:30
Well said, jtr; very well said.
jtr7 on 23/7/2007 at 05:06
Thanks Dia.:)
I'm not always sure if I'm communicating my thoughts well, or not.
imperialreign on 23/7/2007 at 05:29
I entirely agree with you, jtr . . . not sure if my posts sound contradictory to that or not . . . I've been a fan of the Thief series since I picked up TDP years ago, shortly after it was released (still got that odd shaped box, too! <little disappointed that TG was released a coupla months later, though - oh well> ). For the longest time, though, I had no internet connection, not like some did, and I remember having quite the struggle here and there without anyone to turn to for tips (i.e. finding that one key in The Sword, finding all the loot on expert in The Haunted Cathedral, etc.). But, y'know, looking back on it - it's what made it all the more fun, and fulfilling, to be able to finish those tough missions by oneself. I'm honestly glad I didn't have any aide around - but now, years later, with the connection to this community, I've found my interest in the series has only grown since I finally joined up back in January of this year (or was it Feb?).
I honestly think that the discussions, the theorizing, the debating - they all keep the interest going; hopefully, they even spark interest in those guests that just happen to run across this site but still have yet to play any of the titles.
Muzman on 23/7/2007 at 05:46
Whatever reasons one might have for preferring DS over Dark Project, level design can't really be one of them. DS levels are an order of magnitude less complex than just about anything in the first game (the only thing that comes close is the Museum, which is of course held back by a loading zone). This robs the game of a lot of the realism and life the first two had. The city sections don't make up for it at all, unfortunately. To do that they'd have to be at least half the size of Ambush, instead of just a short street and a bit each.
SubJeff on 23/7/2007 at 06:58
There are so many things that are just plain rubbish in TDS as compared to both T1 and T2. Level design is poorer, levels are smaller with loading zones, there is too much equipment (and a missing rope-arrow :( ) and the game is too easy, cutscenes are far inferior.
But by far the worst thing is that the movement is totally ruined.
Thief 1 was fairly unique in that it allowed mantling. This allowed for complex movement and climbing BUT it was dependent on the smooth and very tight walking. This is ruined in TDS - the lean is stupid sidestep, it's far too easy to slip off ledges, the walking is lurching in comparison. In fact the whole "body-awareness" is a misnomer as you are much more clumsy in TDS.
It's pretty much a game breaker because games are about gameplay.
TDS does have better graphics. Somehow that's a small consolation.
Jah on 23/7/2007 at 11:42
Quote Posted by spix's circlet
The world of
Thief is both a world of horror, the supernatural and the conventional; of looting both tombs and manors. Whether you consider areas such as the Bonehoard and the Lost City as thief-like or not is an irrespective judgement, for these are levels, with Bafford's Manor and The Sword, that have defined
Thief. Not all of Garrett's concerns have involved the orthodox, stealing from the rich but,
in need, he has had to travel to the more uglier scenes of the City, to the underground, the hidden and the fantastical.
I suppose we have different ideas of what is or isn't thief-like. To me, places like Bonehoard or the Lost City just don't have the same atmosphere as Bafford's Manor, for example, period.
Quote Posted by spix's circlet
It surprises me that people find the scary, although not necessarily undead missions, as not conducive to
Thief - as unwanted. This is even more surprising in consideration of the instantly recognised apogees in two of the three games, Return to the Haunted Cathedral (TDP), and the Cradle (TDS). They are the game's
raison d'etre, its spectacle and intensity, as much as Life of the Party is for TMA. That these two levels represent the more darker, typically non-human, and in a sense, lonelier aspect of the
Thief universe, is hardly an oversight by the developers.
I'm not saying that those missions should have been excluded. In fact, the reason I don't mind playing the Cradle, despite the fact that the scariness factor has worn off a bit when I already know what's coming, is that it's different from the other missions, and in its uniqueness, it adds flavor to the game, even if it's not my favorite mission from a gameplay point of view. In TDP, I felt that the non-human missions were a bit too dominating, especially towards the end. I have no problem with spicing up the game with unusual elements, as long as these spices don't cover up the original taste.
As for the developers, I once translated a preview article of T2, which included some comments from the LGS development team. In it, they admitted that when they made TDP, the whole idea of a first-person sneaker was so novel that they weren't sure if that would be interesting enough to serve as a basis for the entire game, so they decided to "play it safe" by adding in more conventional, action-oriented missions a'la Bonehoard. The fact that such missions are far less prominent in T2 is a pretty clear indication of what kind of gameplay the developers wanted to focus on.
Quote Posted by spix's circlet
You do know rope arrows were originally to be implemented in TDS, but had to be abandoned due to engine constraints; that the climbing gloves are an inferior compensation?
I don't consider the lack of rope arrows to be a game-breaker, and the "inferiority" of the climbing gloves is just your subjective opinion.
I don't have anything
against rope arrows as such, it's probably more to do with implementation. I keep thinking about Bay D in Soulforge, where you shoot a rope arrow at a grating in the ceiling just above a pool of water. I can't remember how many times I had to try the jump before I actually hit the rope instead of falling into the pool. Shooting rope arrows near walls has caused similar problems with hitting the rope. Again, I'm not saying I hate rope arrows, or that I wouldn't want to see them in a Thief game, I just don't see their existence or absence as a larger-than-life question.
Quote Posted by spix's circlet
If searching about, trying to find nooks and crannies, and jumping ("trying to jump at the exact right moment to actually hit that rope") in a game (particularly in TDP and TMA) is too hard or irksome for you, I can see why the linearity of TDS doesn't bother you. ;)
I do like to explore. Aimlessly running around in circles and revisiting the same place for the umpteenth time just isn't my idea of fun, but if that tickles your fancy, all the better for you.
jtr7 on 23/7/2007 at 13:32
Quote:
I do like to explore. Aimlessly running around in circles and revisiting the same place for the umpteenth time just isn't my idea of fun, but if that tickles your fancy, all the better for you.
Wait...which game are you referring to?
