Why DirectX 11 will save the video card industry and why you don't care - by clearing
gunsmoke on 24/7/2009 at 00:02
Quote Posted by Renzatic
It'd be a great idea if it could be implemented on a macro scale. Like you have a model of a bunch of bricks. Instead of UVing the whole thing and applying a hand drawn texture, you select your polygons and tell it you want the surface to reference a red clay brick schematic with x amount of wear and have it generate the results procedurally.
You could even take it farther with surface details like lichen. Just tell it to produce a moss covering based off another schematic wherever it's most likely to grow. Set some local environmental conditions, like light and humidity, gravity settings, or whatever other things you can think of, and let it go to town.
Even if it isn't taken to the extremes Nicked suggested, it'd still be an excellent way to produce realistic textures quickly and easily.
Why not just say voxels?
lost_soul on 24/7/2009 at 00:22
What I want to know is whether MS will hold DX11 hostage and make it available only on Win7. They did this with DX10 and Vista and the masses didn't exactly flock to Vista.
Then again, hopefully Opengl will continue to develop.
Honestly though, the tech has already gotten so amazing. I doubt there is much they can do to blow me away. I was playing Penumbra the other day and I noticed that you can see the image from a projector on objects if you place them in front of it. That totally blew my mind... and Penumbra is a GL game.
Ostriig on 24/7/2009 at 00:55
Quote Posted by lost_soul
What I want to know is whether MS will hold DX11 hostage and make it available only on Win7.
DX11 will be available for W7 and Vista, but not for XP.
Renzatic on 24/7/2009 at 02:04
Quote Posted by Chade
And I don't see designers relinquishing that much control. I imagine they'd like to directly specify, for instance, what sort of rubble gets created by a collapsing wall, and how that rubble interacts with the player. Let's say you want the player to be able to take cover behind fallen debris, or you want the player to be able to destroy shit without impeding their progress around the map ... do you really want to rely on some heavily indirect process to result in the appropriate debris, or do you just want the programmers to say "here is the probability distribution of debris size when this wall gets destroyed".
It's all very well to enthuse over these low level procedures when they are just going to be used is a cosmetic way (aka 3d nerdery in movies), but once those mechanics start affecting the gameplay, they are pretty much diametrically opposed to the sort of game mechanics that you want (they aren't readible, for starters).
EDIT: having said that, if you did model walls as individual bricks glued together, and destroying a wall was just destroying the glue, then that would make a lot of sense from a gameplay pov. But that's a far cry from simulating tiny atomic elements ... it really just shows that you want to simulate at an appropriate level, not that you want to simulate at a super low level.
Well, I think if we have enough knowledge to simulate an entire city down to the molecular level in realtime, we'll be wise enough to throw in a few cheats to tweak things for gameplay purposes. Not that that much control over an environment will ever be useful in a game. It might be great for some big scientific experiment. But for games, all you have to worry about is being realistic enough to fool everyone, but loose enough so it's easier to control the ebb and flow of things...and doesn't take you an age and a half to make it all.
It's like, here in the near future, we have this awesome 3D holographic chess set with super realistic animated characters. It'd be a good idea for the game designers to model every fold, crack, and seam on the characters because that's what people will notice. The more detail you have on that front, the better. They won't have to go so far as to model a fully functional digestive system on each of these little characters for the sake of realism, though. There comes a point.
Chade on 24/7/2009 at 02:27
I'll be happy to concede your point as long as we're talking about a bunch of algorithms which don't have much influence over the game play.
Otherwise, I doubt that tweaks and cheats will ever be a better solution then directly coding the rules of the game.
EDIT: Although it's also fair to say that a lot of people seem to view realistic rules as an end in themselves, so I suppose there will always be some games where totally realistic behaviour is the "correct", by definition.
june gloom on 24/7/2009 at 02:44
Quote Posted by Renzatic
It's like, here in the near future, we have this awesome 3D holographic chess set with super realistic animated characters. It'd be a good idea for the game designers to model every fold, crack, and seam on the characters because that's what people will notice. The more detail you have on that front, the better. They won't have to go so far as to model a fully functional digestive system on each of these little characters for the sake of realism, though. There comes a point.
Unless it's Battle Chess!
Phatose on 24/7/2009 at 03:48
Quote Posted by Chade
No matter how "advanced" the industry gets, I doubt designers will ever want to simulate at a level that's so far removed from the players actual experience.
Isn't that practically a description of the material system lucasarts was pimping for force unleashed?
Chade on 24/7/2009 at 04:05
Is it? I just wiki'd the game and some it's technology, but couldn't find a clear description of exactly how finely grained the simulation is. My impression is that the simulation is mostly done at the level of whole objects, with some additional tech for some objects deciding how objects are composed of a relatively small number of discrete "sub-objects" when hit/shaken/whatever.
Even with that simple simulation, an interview still talked about how hard it was to marry the physics simulation and the gameplay.
Phatose on 24/7/2009 at 04:09
From the videos they were showing, the sub-objects weren't pre-defined. It was parametric based on the material - not a molecular level, but really an abstraction that achieves essentially the same function.
Chade on 24/7/2009 at 04:40
Well, yeah. They didn't need a molecular simulation to achieve the desired behaviour. And even with that relatively tame physics simulation, it was still hard to get everything working the way they wanted it.