Yakoob on 21/7/2011 at 15:59
It's very interesting to read all about the treatment of whites in Japan here, particularly because my 5 month long study abroad there was very different.
While yes, I was looked at as a "foreigner" I never, not once, felt discriminated. On the contrary, I was fucking worshiped. Like, if I managed to string a 3 word sentence together, everyone would be in awe how amazing my japanese is, how genuine my prononcounation is, that the first meal I held the bowl and chopsticks correctly etc. While yes, it did feel very patronizing most of the time, I felt it stem from something different than disregard for foreigners: Japan's admiraton of the "American."
When you look at how their fashion, music, and particularly language is progressing, you will see there is a great obsessions to become American (or rather, what the Japanese see as American). So many Japanese girls wish they were white; one my friend's role model was Paris Hilton (ugh).
And thus, seen as a white American boy, people loved me, always eager to talk to me, always eager to take photos with me, always eager to do nice things for me, always impressed by me. I guess that's where the whole "special treatment" and "politeness" you guys are describing comes from. But as I said, I always felt it comes from an embellished looking up to me, rather than looking down.
But then, I was at Kansai (which is known to be far more welcoming and crazier than the likes of Tokyo), was with mostly my age (college) kids, am used to traveling and being a foreigner in different countries, and generally do not care much how others treat me as long as im not being mistreated, so might have simply missed the stuff you guys describe.
Briareos H on 21/7/2011 at 16:05
My personal experience calls bullshit on both demagogue's accounts of Japan and France. But of course YMMV
dexterward on 21/7/2011 at 16:40
Quote Posted by demagogue
I don't know.
Just to say, I don`t know either. Never do, really, it`s just I usually end up sounding like I`ve got it all sorted out (this is the case only with Quake, open-sandwiches, turn based RPGs and hardcore cycling. Rest is a mystery :)
So, I don`t know. On account of Japan all you guys are probably right -thats because there are different factions in its society, some older are more conservative, Yakoob`s students are just like that, or maybe it`s "polite" on surface - if you try to move and blend in some smaller town it`d be difficult. I know there is still strong resentment toward America too and so on. The saddest bit is about these girls yearning for MTV lifestyle - it`s true that that`s the same the world over, but with their culture so distinct it is really a shame. In India - arguably home to most beautiful girls on the planet - it gets even crazier, with plastic operations to straighten up the nose.
As for any real assimilation, dunno it probably takes some generations. London, often a poster boy for multiculturalism is actually quite ghettoised, with all the different communities sticking to their turfs. Its not extreme, and you do have a freedom of movement and such, also polite on the surface, but no real mixing. (It might be a crazy observation, but check this: ~ 8.2 times out of 10 I see an interracial couple
they`re holding hands. Like, to ward off any trouble.)
So, don`t know - but hoping for the better. Interesting thread & so far pretty civilized, eh? ;)
june gloom on 21/7/2011 at 17:49
Despite my earlier attempt, yes. :)
Yakoob on 21/7/2011 at 18:27
Quote Posted by dexterward
The saddest bit is about these girls yearning for MTV lifestyle - it`s true that that`s the same the world over, but with their culture so distinct it is really a shame. In India - arguably home to most beautiful girls on the planet - it gets even crazier, with plastic operations to straighten up the nose.
Reminds me of my current indian GF who constantly complains about being too dark and hates me for being so white and fair. In the meantime, you've got millions of white girls and guys lying on beaches trying to get darker.
Its funny how humans sometimes hate everything that is different while simultaneously yearning for it, innit?
Quote Posted by dexterward
Interesting thread & so far pretty civilized, eh? ;)
Yup. In the meantime, my sandwich thread spirals further down towards asshattery and faggotree. Interestingly, the same thread I reposted on another forum also ended up in snide remarks and back-and-forth insults.
Clearly, people are far more emotional and passionate about sandwiches than their own cultural and national heritage.
dexterward on 21/7/2011 at 22:47
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Despite my earlier attempt, yes. :)
Well, you got rid of the OP :P
june gloom on 22/7/2011 at 00:12
We don't know that.
demagogue on 22/7/2011 at 02:51
Quote Posted by Briareos H
My personal experience calls bullshit on both demagogue's accounts of Japan and France. But of course YMMV
Well a lot of it was entertaining hyperbole... But there was a core to it that I think is right. I'm happy to hear your alt take on it. I mean, I wasn't talking about just tourists or study-abroad people that know they're going home, but full-on immigrants that want to live there and assimilate.
As for France, I was going entirely by my French friend's rants. I really don't know much myself, though I did spent ~half a year in Geneva on the border, but Geneva itself is sort of a special case itself (like DC or NYC or The Hague), where you can entirely surround yourself with expats. Anyway, my friend's persistent rants were that he considers himself 100% French but people don't treat him that way because he's racially Korean. He rants about a lot of things though, so I don't even take it that seriously... His rants are pretty consistent about it though; maybe he's talking about particular people or situations that annoy him? But I won't stand by it since I don't know enough first-hand.
As for Japan... Now this I stand more behind. Didn't you think when you were there that, even after you'd been there a long while, a lot of people still treated you like you just arrived? Anyway, it's not even my argument I was making. There's a whole cottage industry of articles and debates on all the Westerners, Koreans, & SE Asians that get Japanese wives, live in Japan, no expectation of ever leaving, and have bi-racial kids in school, and what to do about "these people". Usually the discussion runs along some line of making sure they understand the customs and that the kids won't be picked on, but what I never seem to read about is serious discussion about how to make these people literally "become Japanese", which is one of the *first* things they talk about in the American counterpart situation. I think it's a real & consistent social attitude (or obliviousness). The 2nd gen bi-racial situation is starting to force the issue though, which is a healthy development in the end I think. (I could also mention my rant about the "scandal" of the Korean 50 year+ permanent resident everyone thought was actually Japanese that donated to a campaign, and the candidate having to resign in disgrace, when the only scandalous part was the woman wasn't a citizen, much less treated like some enemy of the state. In the US she would have been an US citizen for like 40 years now and being able to donate to a campaign would have gone without saying.)
Anyway I don't want to make too much out of it (putting aside my earlier entertainment hyperbole). My whole original point wasn't to say this is shocking news, I think all those articles on "Western absorption" speak for themselves, but just that it helps explain why in Japan and China there's this culture of being overly polite to immigrants, whereas in the US, there's the opposite culture of taking everyone as they are; if they sound funny you laugh, whatever their background -- esp if you're talking about jr high school, holy shit, who *didn't* get laughed at in middle school!? -- it's just that recent immigrants get hit rather harder by that. I was trying to barf up a respectable explanation for the difference in those two cultures.
But I was also trying to just point out there's a possible positive flip side to that same culture too, to give the OP something to think about, which I already explained... something about Asian politeness being a constant barrier to assimilating, but in the US the taunts tend to work in *favor* of (some) immigrants assimilating, or like the story RBJ told; making fun of FOBs is like the privilege of 2nd Gens that got the brass ring, and FOBs will get their chance in due time. I don't think I'm too far off with any of this. But maybe you were talking about a really specific claim, which very well could have been pulled out of my ass...
I'll drop it anyway. Be nice if the OP came back though.
ZylonBane on 22/7/2011 at 22:34
Quote Posted by dexterward
English can be particularly nasty because they`re all smiles up front but when you turn your back sniggering commences.
Kind of like how we all make fun of you behind your back for not knowing the difference between an apostrophe and a grave accent.
dexterward on 23/7/2011 at 00:03
Precisely. Still, I had my revenge when thrashing y`all at Scrabble.
