Axalon on 8/11/2012 at 20:12
Quote Posted by Captain Spandex
On a list I saw on IGN a year or so ago, Thief 2 ranked higher than 1. Ditto for GameSpy. And Kotaku. And GameSpot. So I'd suggest the basis for this thread is a bit of a misnomer.
You've got to remember, this thread was started in 2003, things may have been different at the time. I can't say because I didn't hear about or play Thief until 2010 so what do I know?
jtr7 on 9/11/2012 at 04:06
Yeah, it's always been a misnomer, but in 2003 and more importantly for this context, here on TTLG, Thief fans leaned toward TDP over Gold and TMA, after some time had passed, the honeymoon glow had waned, and most of the fundamental questions and excited discussion were already thoroughly gone over by this community *with* the devs themselves. TMA was more immediately satisfying for people who started with that one or struggled with TDP's supernatural elements, but respect for TDP grew as reflection grew, outside, of course, the FMs. Since TMA came second, it's a no-brainer why TDP would be defended or appreciated more at that time, with all the major changes that people found unsettling, and with Thief 3 looming on the horizon, and the wish for an adherence to what people respected in the games, that they had always loved, or had grown to love more, or had come to love that they didn't know they would. Four years of living with the games and the memories and the sharing and debating and arguing among fans, in light of huge industry changes, made the original more precious and increasingly unique in the new millennium.
Beleg Cúthalion on 9/11/2012 at 07:48
How long has it been since the last call to reason was posted in this thread? All three games are different and have their own set of elements turning you on or off, both on an objective level but much higher IMHO on a personal one. Arguing about these elements now is merely moving up opinions against each other and makes me miss the spirit of placidity that apparently was here a year ago.
Axalon on 10/11/2012 at 07:58
I haven't really noticed any arguing since I resurected this thread. Discussion, maybe a bit of debate at the most, but no real hostility.
Beleg Cúthalion on 12/11/2012 at 10:52
I thought arguing referred to using arguments. Like... in a discussion or debate. :weird: At least my dictionary proves me right.
Axalon on 12/11/2012 at 19:45
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
I thought arguing referred to using arguments. Like... in a discussion or debate. :weird: At least my dictionary proves me right.
Yeah you're right, but I meant that I haven't noticed any internet arguements, which are an entirely different beast.
Brian T on 1/12/2012 at 12:08
It's an old thread and I'm sure some of the earlier posters are now grandparents/ CEO's of powerful software companies or dawdling about in care homes, but here's my view, given that I've just completed both games recently and they're fresh in my mind.
Music. The music in Thief was IMO better and much more evocative. Offhand in Thief 2 I can only sort of remember ambient music that provokes a sense of apprehension or anticipation. THief 1 had some very memorable music like the mournful Horn Of Quintus, and the eerie tune that plays of the upper levels of Baffords manor. Music can be a powerful thing in games, and movies. Without the menacing theme in Jaws it would probably just be a stupid rubber shark movie that people would laugh at. The Thief 1 music did a lot for it.
Obviously THief 1 was the earlier game and there's a tendency for nosatalgia, the sense that Thief 1 came from "the good old days"
Above all I think it's atmosphere. THief 1 is in my view a more atmospheric game. When I played Baffords the first time I could almost smell the damp stone walls, when I played the upper levels of The Sword it was like being in a medieval ALice In Wonderland world. THief 1 is clearly medieval in flavor whereas the atmosphere in Thief 2 is harder to describe. More modern in flavor, sometimes too much so, ie the cafeteria in the police station.
I myself never that much of a problem with the undead. I thought they made a welcome change from the human sneaking missions. Bonehoard is actually one of my favourite missions.
Thief 2 had tighter design, but IMO it was a bit too contrived in parts. Thief 1 drew me into this cool computer generated world that I got absorbed in, whereas with Thief 2 I always kept thinking "what do the designers want me to do now?"Having said that Life Of The Party remains a favourite mission of mine. Gotta love that rooftop sneaking!
Thief 1 for me, but by a very small margin.
VanBurenPhilips on 1/12/2012 at 18:43
I was surprised when I first saw this thread title, because based on critical response and opinions I've heard pretty much everywhere except here, I thought Thief 2 was widely regarded as the better game. It's been an interesting read. There's no point getting argumentative about differing tastes, but it's good to find out what people like about the elements I didn't like. Thinking about FMs or imagining how I'd like a future Thief game to be, on my own I would have gone for a similar balance to Thief 2 with barely a second thought. But hearing from those who liked the magic & monsters & fantasy of the first game has given me a more balanced view.
Anyway, I'm gonna throw my opinions in now, sorry if I annoy anyone ;)
For a long time I've (relatively) disliked the higher fantasy of TDP, but after a replay, some FMs and reflection (and help from this thread), I know that I can fully enjoy fantasy-themed levels. I have a better understanding now of precisely what bugged me in TDP, and it boils down to a couple of particular enemy types and IMO a few really bad levels. Zombies are fine, they provide a different kind of danger & stealth challenge to human opponents. Haunts are great in small doses - I actually wish they were harder to kill, because I find them so scary and love the feeling of "shiiiit I really shouldn't be here" when I wander into an unfamiliar gloom-filled place with a couple of those guys stalking around. I would like to retain that feeling without the safety net of knowing I could just backstab them. But the ghosts are awful, and the sheer abundance of undead at times is just ludicrous. The first cathedral mission is rubbish. It's just bad almost entirely, the only bit I remember fondly being the Serpentyle Torc house. Burricks are lovable, but they stink in gameplay. Those stretches of the Bonehoard that are just long, bright Burrick tunnels are very nearly the exact opposite of what I want in a Thief game (the horn thing is excellent, though). I hated the Lost City at first, not so much on second play through but Burricks and elementals and too much light make it hard to like. And the Maw - aside from a bit of atmosphere and a great finale - is just not a very good level.
RTC is an odd one. I guess we all have those permanently burned-in memories of astounding gaming moments. I have one which will never leave me from my first 60-hour play of Deus Ex, probably my all-time favourite game. I have three just from this single level of Thief. But I had a mostly awful time playing it. I got spotted fairly early, and from then on the place was crawling with undead - patrols upon patrols upon patrols, practically impossible to predict or fight through and with tiny windows for movement. It took forever, and was a true ordeal. But - and here's where it differs from the first cathedral visit - it's a really well designed level with interesting challenges (a bit protracted though). I look back at this and think "that was a brilliant level" and "I hated it" simultaneously.
The worst level in TG, though, is the Thieves' Guild, and that has nothing to do with fantasy. The game on the whole is strongest when it has 100% confidence in stealth gameplay, but back then it was a new, untested thing. It's understandable that (a) it had some holdovers from known fantasy RPGs like Ultima Underworld, which might have been considered a safe bet for the expected audience and (b) some of the levels aren't great because who knew back then what made a great Thief level? I think they really gained that confidence after Thief had been out in the wild and it shows in Thief 2. I don't think the presence of fantasy thematically makes a lot of difference, but the fantasy-heavy times and places in Thief coincided with most of the worst bits of gameplay. Also bear in mind that most of us were probably not amazing Thief players on our very first attempts :) - this could further sour first experiences of those areas. First impressions are pretty powerful - I admit that I made a strong association there which I'm only just beginning to rethink.
Just to put this in perspective, it sounds like a right bash but Thief is one of my favourite games, I remember eagerly waiting for updates on "The Dark Project" site like no other game before or since, the very first .mov download, and buying that big box on day one. I love it. I just love TMA more :) They both have flaws. TMA has better levels on the whole, but poor integration of levels & story. I saw it as a good job of fixing what was wrong with Thief - those who loved its fantasy elements might feel they threw the baby out with the bathwater, but I was over the moon. I don't mind medieval fantasy, used to love it when I was younger but it's been done to death in PC gaming and I just don't care about it as a genre any more. Huge respect for creating a new mythology and not taking the beaten Tolkien/Norse path, but I just prefer the steampunk influences of TMA & a story that's more about people rather than a dark god trying to destroy the world again, and I think the Babbage-like tech has so much more potential & makes a more interesting world. I just wish TMA's story was told as well as TDP's, in that regard the original was excellent. Stylistically, I love the mix of medieval all the way up to 19th century and would not lose either extreme or anything in between. It's mad and it works. Personally, I'd make Thief's fantasy element less about monster encounters and wizards throwing magic missiles, and steep it even further in supernatural horror.
One thing in this thread I strongly disagree with is Azaran's comment that Thief 2 has no horror element. For me those big stomping robots were genuinely scary, and the metal faces really creeped me out (kinda like SS2 via The Time Machine). But Soulforge was totally overcooked, like the bad undead levels in TDP. And I know horror's such a tricky thing, either it pushes your buttons or it doesn't.
ZylonBane on 5/12/2012 at 21:20
Quote Posted by VanBurenPhilips
One thing in this thread I strongly disagree with is Azaran's comment that Thief 2 has no horror element. For me those big stomping robots were genuinely scary, and the metal faces really creeped me out
Scary is not the same thing as horror.
skacky on 5/12/2012 at 22:07
Yes. I find the combots to be spine-chilling, but it's absolutely not horror. The only horror aspect that T2 has is the 'servant lab' in Eavesdropping. That's it. Also, The Haunted Cathedral rubbish? Really? We won't get along well. :cheeky:
