The_Caped_Eluder on 27/3/2003 at 21:14
TDP wins for me
Why is TDP better? It's hard to put your finger on, but all reasons given previously have merit. I think it also has something to do with how TMA changed the game world a bit too much for my liking. I had played through TDP quite a few times, and it was a place I had started to like being in, and I felt comfortable with the balance of the various elements it had. When two of the major elements, namely Hammerites and undead, where nearly removed... well... it somehow seemed like a different place. Not a completely different place of course, but reducing these elements also reduced some of the immersion in the setting that had been established in the first game. I guess I got so immersed in the gameworld of the first game that I had problems accepting changes to it, even though the plot actually required some.
The scare factor is definitely a big part of it as well. The funny thing is though, when I finally got a 3D card (to play TMA), and played through TDP with it, I tought it too was a lot less scary than it had been in software. Go figure... :erg:
Francine on 27/3/2003 at 23:43
Warning! What follows could possibly constitute a rant, and at several times it deviates heavily from the original question to talk about design issues, so if you just want a one sentence answer then read the last line.
Quote:
from GayleSaver's "The Paradigm of a Thief Mission" documentHarness story as a device for solutions and solutions as a device for story.In Thief 1, story and gameplay were integrated and the levels flowed from one to the next.
Quote:
by GarrettI stole a scepter for Cutty, then had to break him out of Cragscleft after he got himself captured. But Cutty died on me during the breakout, not before telling me that the Hammers had Felix's map though. So I went map hunting, and when I found it I went after the Horn of Quintus in the Bonehoard. I sold the horn to buy some lockpicks, and almost got myself killed in the process. However, my revenge on Ramirez must have been the talk of the town, 'cause now Vikkie wants to hire me.The story was part of the levels, and playing the levels felt like it altered the storyline. As the player I know that the story was scripted and could only unfold in one fashion. However, as Garrett I
felt like I had multiple options even if most of my actions where dictated by the story itself. What if Cutty hadn't been taken to Cragscleft? What if Ramirez hadn't tried to kill me? What if I could have gotten into the Cathedral the first time? The original game built up an idea that things would happen in a particular manner, and then changed how the story unfolded when I least expected it
do to my interaction with the game. That last part I think is key, and it's what GayleSaver called "emergent gameplay" in the essay mentioned above.
Thief 2, however, did no such thing.
Quote:
by GarrettBasso's an old friend, so I figure I'll help him out with this Jennie thing, and then he'll owe me a favor. Right, now that Jennie's been freed, I've got to rob a warehouse to pay the rent. Now that my landlord's not breathing down my neck, I can frame Hagan and make some more money. I thought Sammy was a good contact, but he's obviously sold me out, so now I have to escape an ambush.Huh? Where's the connection? Where's the underlying story? Don't make me wait six missions to develop it, give it to me now! Thief 2 felt like lots of individual (and well done) fan missions, but it's my opinion that the story was written to fit the missions and not visa versa. If you're going to string missions into a series, then one should flow into the next like Calendra's does. In CC I steal the Cylix, in CL I sell it, and the characters carry over as well. Christine's Lord Ashton series is the same way. It's a
series, so my choices in one mission
seem to effect how the next one unfolds. The place I start mission two is the same place I ended mission one. I know where I am and I'm immediately immersed, which is how things should be done.
Quote:
from GayleSaver's "The Paradigm of a Thief Mission" documentIf you can cram a quart of gameplay into a pint of space, you have done well by the player.Ergo, reuse worldspace. Assassins did this via the City before and after the alarm at Ramirez's house. Deceptive Perceptions did this before and after I found my dagger. Even Cragscleft did it both by forcing me to get Basso back out, and by only telling me the evidence locker had been robbed after I'd gone all the way up to it. CL did it with Murkball and the "Night of the Living Dead" event. OCOD did it the best of any FM I've played to date by making me go up, out, around, and back down. Anyway, you get the idea. Thief 2, however, did not reuse worldspace
within the same level, and that I think was one of its flaws.
In addition to being reusable worldspace should also be unique. Every room should serve a purpose, and the purpose of a room should be identifiable within a second or two after the player walks into it. Bedrooms should look like bedrooms and kitchens should look like kitchens. Banks should not look like the one in First City Bank and Trust did. That was not a bank; that was architectural stupidity. First City Bank and Trust was obviously designed as a sneaky puzzle with a half baked story thrown in as an afterthought. In fact, most of Thief 2 felt like it was designed as a sneaky puzzle with a half baked story thrown in as an afterthought. In my opinion, it's almost as bad as the old cliche about throwing a maze into a game because you don't know what to do next. The exception to this rule is of course Constantine's mansion from Thief 1, which tried to achieve a very specific look and feel in order to evoke emotion in the player.
Oh yeah, that's another thing that Thief 1 did that Thief 2 didn't. It evoked emotion in me. I feared for my life. I lusted after Viktoria, and I became paranoid about my safety after she ripped my eye from my head. I vowed revenge on Constantine for double crossing me. I loathed the way the Keepers seemed to guide my actions, and I hated my powerless inability to stop them. I did not feel such depths of emotion in Thief 2. RTC was scary. Deceptive Perceptions was even scarier. Casing the Joint was not scary. Why? Because Karras was not a bad guy I'd come to fear. I saw what Constantine did with the Eye. I knew what he was capable of doing to me. Karras couldn't lay a finger on me. If you're going to build up Garrett as the "I can rob a god and live to tell about it" type protagonist, then a pansy Mechanist wannabe antagonist is not going to be intimidating. Of course, I did want to kill every Mechanist I came across after Trail of Blood, but that's the only powerful emotion I felt during the course of the entire game.
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from GayleSaver's "The Paradigm of a Thief Mission" documentElective gameplay is a component of emergence; without choice, your mission might well be labeled a scripted movie...Choice may easily be embedded on any scale, and the payoff is worthwhile.In Thief 1 I felt like I had choice to start with, but somehow fate had intervened to rob me of that choice. That was fine. In Thief 2 I was never given a choice. I was playing a scripted movie. The only choice I had was how I went about a certain burglary task, but my choices never changed the plot like they did in Thief 1. For the ultimate "choosey" FM to date, I'd say the prize goes to Left for Dead by Schwaa. Reading books means getting more objectives which means changes in plot. The mission can last 20 minutes or 7 hours depending on how much of the story I want to unfold and how much of the game I want to play. And now that I think about it, The 7th Crystal also had that "choice robbed by fate" feel to it that I enjoyed so much in the original game, which was probably one of the reasons I enjoyed it so much.
In any 3D game (and in Thief especially) atmosphere is not only a function of story, but it is also a function of light. In Thief specifically it is very much a function of binary lighting. If I am Garrett, both a creature of shadow and quite a bit weaker then the guards around me, then when I look at both the ground and the world I should see very distinct differences between light and dark, safety and death. Binary lighting was used extensively in Thief 1, but not as much so in Thief 2. Part of that was do to the industrialization that occurred in the City during the time gap between the two. Victorian style housing with a central electric system has a lot less binary lighting then a stone manor lit only by torches. Take a look at the building you're in now; how much of it is binarily lit? Still this storyline limitation can be overcome, as Saturnine proved with T7C. It's lighting and texture usage were radical, and it caused players to wonder "Is this Thief?" but still, T7C overcame the limitations of it setting
by using colored lighting in an appropriate manner. Blue lit staircases (lit that way do to stained glass windows) were relatively dark and safe. Gas lamp lit hallways were not. Once lights were turned out, bedrooms were safe. The garden could be unsafe in you were caught in moonlight. Colored lighting was used the way it had should have been, as both a function of gameplay and an enhancement to texture.
And after story has been taken care of, texture is what makes or breaks a 3D game. Texture creates reality. Good use of textures and the lights that bring them out create a world. Load CL or GatI in Dromed, remove the textures, and then look at the relative simplicity of the architecture. But it doesn't look that simple in the game; no, it looks complex because texture and light have been used to create the illusion of there being more than what actually exists. Now load up a Thief 2 OM and do the same thing. While Ambush uses textures well, the same can not be said for Eavesdropping or most of the other Thief 2 OMs.
However, the technical abilities of Thief 2 far surpass those of Thief 1. Lighting, weather effects, textures, and architectural abilities are all superior in Thief 2, but their usefulness in a game exists only so far as they propel the immerse gameplay. Without backdrop, they are nothing more then an exclamation of "Look what our engine can do!" Those level designers who insist on using Dromed for Thief 1 because it has "better atmosphere" or because they want to "achieve a specific look" are missing the picture. It's not about the tool; tools alone don't build atmosphere or create look. That's the level designer's job, and if zie has a fantastic story to back zir, then the job becomes that much easier.
To sum it all up to the very bottom line, Thief 1 put the story first, and that made all the difference in the world.
Francine on 27/3/2003 at 23:47
Quote:
Originally posted by The_Caped_Eluder The funny thing is though, when I finally got a 3D card (to play TMA), and played through TDP with it, I tought it too was a lot less scary than it had been in software. Go figure... :erg: Software mode creates extensive binary lighting in addition to giving the game a graphic novel style look, at least on my machine. The result is a gigantic bump in atmosphere, since in any 3D game atmosphere is in part a function of lighting and texture.
Darkwarrior_II on 28/3/2003 at 00:16
I like them both equally. They're tied for first place in my Holy List of the Best Gamers Ever.
Mithrandir on 28/3/2003 at 01:14
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Originally posted by sailoreagle Because it's better. ;)
Seriously, though, it's a matter of opinion. Thief 2 was a cakewalk, never scared me, and was utterly boring in some points. Thief 1, on the other hand... It never scared you?
I think the treebeasts alone are scarier than the undead...if they didn't scare you I take my hat off to you, milady.
Child of Karras on 28/3/2003 at 01:14
Sorry for the double-post. Accident.
Refer to the one below for my reply.
Child of Karras on 28/3/2003 at 01:16
Quote:
Originally posted by Francine The story was part of the levels, and playing the levels felt like it altered the storyline. As the player I know that the story was scripted and could only unfold in one fashion. However, as Garrett I felt like I had multiple options even if most of my actions where dictated by the story itself. What if Cutty hadn't been taken to Cragscleft? What if Ramirez hadn't tried to kill me? What if I could have gotten into the Cathedral the first time? The original game built up an idea that things would happen in a particular manner, and then changed how the story unfolded when I least expected it do to my interaction with the game. That last part I think is key, and it's what GayleSaver called "emergent gameplay" in the essay mentioned above.
Thief 2, however, did no such thing.That's because you played T:TDP 'BEFORE' T2:TMA and knew what to expect right? It's like getting the internet for the first time. You feel it's magic because there are so many things to explore but as the years pass, you begin to lose that special feeling. The same goes with Thief. I know. I've felt it after completing both games and replaying.
Huh? Where's the connection? Where's the underlying story? Don't make me wait six missions to develop it, give it to me now! Thief 2 felt like lots of individual (and well done) fan missions, but it's my opinion that the story was written to fit the missions and not visa versa. If you're going to string missions into a series, then one should flow into the next like Calendra's does. In CC I steal the Cylix, in CL I sell it, and the characters carry over as well. Christine's Lord Ashton series is the same way. It's a series, so my choices in one mission seem to effect how the next one unfolds. The place I start mission two is the same place I ended mission one. I know where I am and I'm immediately immersed, which is how things should be done.Yeah the first two missions had no connection whatsoever but if you had read the letters in 'Trial of Blood', you'll found out that the framing of Hagan is in fact all part of Mosley's plan to take control of the City Watch. To protect the Pagans, she needed control and thus, removing key figures is vital. Yeah it's "probably" a bitch to wait so long for an answer to appear but it's nice to go: "Hey! So THIS is what really happened! Wow! Misley in conspiracies!" And don't you think the missions shoud MAKE SENSE rather than connect with the story all the time? What do you want? The Keeper's appearing to Garrett in his home and leaving him tips so that he wouldn't get killed and nothing happens? T:TDP is wonderfully done but T:TMA is just as good. No, even better. Well like I mentioned many times, both games have their pros and cons.
Ergo, reuse worldspace. Assassins did this via the City before and after the alarm at Ramirez's house. Deceptive Perceptions did this before and after I found my dagger. Even Cragscleft did it both by forcing me to get Basso back out, and by only telling me the evidence locker had been robbed after I'd gone all the way up to it. CL did it with Murkball and the "Night of the Living Dead" event. OCOD did it the best of any FM I've played to date by making me go up, out, around, and back down. Anyway, you get the idea. Thief 2, however, did not reuse worldspace within the same level, and that I think was one of its flaws.Why would they want to reuse when they make something new? What about 'Life of the Party'? Trying to get back out and avoiding all the Mechanists is another "objective" isn't it?
Oh yeah, that's another thing that Thief 1 did that Thief 2 didn't. It evoked emotion in me. I feared for my life. I lusted after Viktoria, and I became paranoid about my safety after she ripped my eye from my head. I vowed revenge on Constantine for double crossing me. I loathed the way the Keepers seemed to guide my actions, and I hated my powerless inability to stop them. I did not feel such depths of emotion in Thief 2. RTC was scary. Deceptive Perceptions was even scarier. Casing the Joint was not scary. Why? Because Karras was not a bad guy I'd come to fear. I saw what Constantine did with the Eye. I knew what he was capable of doing to me. Karras couldn't lay a finger on me. If you're going to build up Garrett as the "I can rob a god and live to tell about it" type protagonist, then a pansy Mechanist wannabe antagonist is not going to be intimidating. Of course, I did want to kill every Mechanist I came across after Trail of Blood, but that's the only powerful emotion I felt during the course of the entire game.This one is a matter of opinion. It's not a flaw. Nothing has managed to strike me this hard until the Mechanists appeared. Then there's some who like the Keepers and the Pagans etc... You cannot use this one as way to bash Thief 2 because it is all about different opinions.
In Thief 1 I felt like I had choice to start with, but somehow fate had intervened to rob me of that choice. That was fine. In Thief 2 I was never given a choice. I was playing a scripted movie. The only choice I had was how I went about a certain burglary task, but my choices never changed the plot like they did in Thief 1. For the ultimate "choosey" FM to date, I'd say the prize goes to Left for Dead by Schwaa. Reading books means getting more objectives which means changes in plot. The mission can last 20 minutes or 7 hours depending on how much of the story I want to unfold and how much of the game I want to play. And now that I think about it, The 7th Crystal also had that "choice robbed by fate" feel to it that I enjoyed so much in the original game, which was probably one of the reasons I enjoyed it so much.Refer to my first response above. Can't argue with the part on "choosey" FM's because I enjoy it as well.
To sum it all up to the very bottom line, Thief 1 put the story first, and that made all the difference in the world. I'll ask you the same question I asked Azal. If T:TMA was T:TDP, would you have loved it like how you love T:TDP right now?
Jake on 28/3/2003 at 02:15
I prefer T2 mostly because of the asthetic feel. It just feels cleaner. I know that "you're in a mideval city the closest thing to indoor plumbing is a hole in a wooden bench...", but after messing with dromed I just prefer to make levels for t2. And the ai's are too low poly. Seriously, who's gonna critisize you because you gave your ai a nose? T1 had a spookier atmosphere, (suprisingly, I found escape the scariest mission. When I saw all those creatures I turned off my computer and didn't play again for a few weeks.) I guess the messy look helps spooky missions. The undead in t2 did't seem all that menacing. The lack of undead really doesn't bother me much. The don't have the same interesting qualities humans have, being able to say intellegent stuff to themselves or each other, any real purpose in life/afterlife. Burricks weren't that interesting either. My favorite level in t1 was assassins, a human level. My favorite level in t2 was life of the party, another human level. Well, just my opinion. I prefer the menu screen in t1, though.
Osterman on 28/3/2003 at 02:29
I like Thief Gold slightly better then Thief II.
Forje on 28/3/2003 at 03:20
Thanks for that link zacharias.
In a game like this, for me, the storyline is probably the most important aspect. I could never put my finger on what it was exactly that didn't sit right with me about the storyline of T2 though. That post by Purah nailed it. Too many questions left unresolved. After sifting through all those journals and discarded memos in "Framed" I immediately wanted to know a lot more about this Lt. Mosley character, who eventually led us to a pagan and a few more letters, then disappeared. Overall, I liked the gameplay better in T2, and I prefer that "type" of story, but I guess it was the execution that fell short.
I agree with most when they say that the atmosphere in TDP outshines that of T2. It's darker, spookier, and most importantly has continuity. I still have very mixed feelings about the last three missions though, but at least they do follow the continuity of the plot. I was able to get over my suprise at the change from super-thief to super...relic.. finding...guy, because the story pulled me forward. T2s plot is a bit less linear and I was always distracted by well...important questions like...Why the hell does Truart want Garret DEAD anyway? (As opposed to incarcerated...or better, shipped off to Karras. I'm still not sure I know the answer to that question) Just because of a little attempted theft mock-up to frame one of his higher ranking officers? That's some short fuse. And now Truart's been murdered? That was an AWESOME suprise that got a little weird. Even when I found out what was really going on, I still felt like I needed to know more. The only thing about TDP that I really wanted to know more about was of course the Keepers, but realizing that these guys are supposed to be mysterious and enigmatic, I figured I'd get to see more of them in T2...well, there was a little...yadda, yadda, yadda I still had a ton of fun and it ain't over yet...but yeah, what Purah said.
