McTaffer on 17/9/2019 at 12:49
I'm pretty sure that it's not illegal, especially given the fact that the Elder Scrolls and Fallout communities all have modders with Patreon accounts blatantly on their mod pages. The dynamic is a lot different here, though. I don't think most of the old guard would ever do such a thing, meaning if new authors started doing it there would be a sudden divide in the community. I wouldn't do one (at least not specifically for making FMs) because a) who would give me money? and b) I would suddenly have pressure to actually put out new stuff, which I just don't have the time for right now.
Incidentally I do plan on getting back to Dromed at some point, but it may not be until after I finish my degree sometime next year. Real life stuff has very much gotten in the way. Still, I definitely have time to do voice acting for the upcoming contest *wink wink*.
fortuni on 17/9/2019 at 12:53
If an author released a mission full of bugs, or if a Newdark update further on down the line caused a game breaking bug such as the AICurrentPatrol links issue that cropped up in ND 1.27, how would I get my money back?
SilentDragon on 17/9/2019 at 13:42
Quote Posted by nicked
I don't think (and I may be wrong so don't quote me) that there's any legal problem with a mission author having a Patreon or similar setup as long as there's no direct connection to the mission itself, which would still be freely available to all - it's kinda like the equivalent of putting a tip jar out next to it.
But I would say it's very much something that isn't in the spirit of this community, and I can't imagine you'd see much uptake from it.
I am very interested how this would be against the spirit, sure its a quite drastic innovation, but as long it is optional (nobody expects to be paid) and supports the work I do not see any problems, but I could be wrong.
Quote Posted by McTaffer
I'm pretty sure that it's not illegal, especially given the fact that the Elder Scrolls and Fallout communities all have modders with Patreon accounts blatantly on their mod pages. The dynamic is a lot different here, though. I don't think most of the old guard would ever do such a thing, meaning if new authors started doing it there would be a sudden divide in the community. I wouldn't do one (at least not specifically for making FMs) because a) who would give me money? and b) I would suddenly have pressure to actually put out new stuff, which I just don't have the time for right now.
Incidentally I do plan on getting back to Dromed at some point, but it may not be until after I finish my degree sometime next year. Real life stuff has very much gotten in the way. Still, I definitely have time to do voice acting for the upcoming contest *wink wink*.
If Patreon would become a thing here would especially hope the ones with already a lot of credit would take it up, because in other games some established modders really pushed it to new heights and I am hoping that would happen here.
The difference in dynamics is also worth to talk about because from my experience most game forums seem quite similar.
Quote Posted by fortuni
If an author released a mission full of bugs, or if a Newdark update further on down the line caused a game breaking bug such as the AICurrentPatrol links issue that cropped up in ND 1.27, how would I get my money back?
Would that not lay on the back of the author and ones own leniency with mistakes? I mean, I would only back someone if they had a good reputation, so I would excuse some missteps.
Unna Oertdottir on 17/9/2019 at 14:23
In FM creation too many people and helpful hands are involved. It's a work of the community. You can see the authors name, but that's not everything as PinkDot already pointed out.
Scripts, resources, translation and so on.
fortuni, greedy as always. He was playing "Hidden Stone" recently. Mr. Greed is haunting him now, since fortuni killed the guy and took the money :idea:
SilentDragon on 17/9/2019 at 17:52
Quote Posted by Unna Oertdottir
In FM creation too many people and helpful hands are involved. It's a work of the community. You can see the authors name, but that's not everything as PinkDot already pointed out.
Scripts, resources, translation and so on.
fortuni, greedy as always. He was playing "Hidden Stone" recently. Mr. Greed is haunting him now, since fortuni
killed the guy and took the money :idea:
Yeah, maybe they should receive support too. But there are a lot of ways to handle such a situation, maybe it is the main artist's responsibility or another way. More discourse needed IMO.
fortuni on 17/9/2019 at 19:32
@ SilentDragon
Maybe my comment above didn't fully explain my position. Authors receiving a gratitude in any way for their work opens a ugly can of worms. What if the mission wasn't as good as the teaser screenshots implied, what if the story line caused offence, what does an author, who has received a large amount of Patreon up front, do if they don't take kindly to any criticism on the forum for their mission, do they refuse to make more missions?
What about newbie authors, how much do they expect and how will they feel if someone else receives a lot more for a mission that is arguably no better than theirs?
There are some authors that are held in high regard in this community, does a small number of authors receive 90% of the Patreon whilst everybody else scrambles for a few left over pennies, and what ill feeling could that generate?
We have had a constant stream of new authors, years after Thief was a 'chart topping' game and that is in no small measure due to the fact that this community welcomes all authors, all missions and all contributions with equal respect, and as ValmontPhl said, money changes everything.
I myself must have spent 10,000+ hours over the last 7 years writing walkthroughs, lootlists, updating the mission by type thread, the brief summaries, beta testing, bug testing & fixing older missions, reviews, making maps and more. Should I expect a gratitude for all that work, only giving access to all that work to those that line my pocket, or should I cease all behind the scenes work because other are making more when I'm struggling to pay my day to day bills.
I do what I do because it's my hobby, in gives me a massive amount of fulfillment, but if I was chasing the filthy lucre then all may become a chore, no longer a pleasure and like most other money making tasks my heart would not be in it to to the right thing but to make as many bucks as fast as I could.
Yes money changes everything.
Calibrator on 17/9/2019 at 20:21
All in my humble opinion:
The very reason why we have this incredible little community that still provides fans of the game with new content (not only missions but also enhancements that put many other popular games to *shame*) has exactly ZERO to do with monetary compensation.
This single reason is what we all have around here and what unites us:
LOVE
Love for the Thief games, love for playing them, love for creating for them.
I believe that we wouldn't have what he have today - 20 years after the first Thief game was published - if there wasn't this much love for it.
The anniversary missions for T1 showed exactly that and I'm 1000% sure that we will have sensational T2 anniversary missions.
This little community thrived though it lacked a money element - and it probably still thrives *because* it lacked it.
And when somebody who contributed so much departs from this community we truly know what love is.
* * *
As fortuni says: Money changes everything.
As an old German proverb says: "Mit Geld hört die Freundschaft auf!" (rough translation: "Friendship ends with money!").
trefoilknot on 17/9/2019 at 23:30
I agree with all the above comments about money having some potentially negative impacts on the community. I think a better model, if the goal is just to help people generate some income for their efforts, would be more of a “task rabbit” approach. If you get bogged down scripting something tricky, it'd be nice to just plunk some cash down in exchange for a more expert DromEder's expertise. Obviously, this is an easy out, but there are some major efficiencies to be gained from this sort of division of labor.
This would sidestep a lot of the concerns voiced above, but wouldn't be totally risk free from a community standpoint. It'd be a shame to lose the “we help each other out because we like to” spirit. Still, it seems a more realistic path, IMO. I know I certainly have a lot of painful scripting in my future that I would pay good money to outsource, if anyone is interested...
uncadonego on 18/9/2019 at 09:47
I suspect nothing would kill the fulfillment faster than turning the hobby into an obligation.
Haplo on 19/9/2019 at 10:14
Quote Posted by uncadonego
I suspect nothing would kill the fulfillment faster than turning the hobby into an obligation.
That.