Zapmeister on 5/3/2007 at 04:27
Sure, there's been things like Splinter Cell, but not since the Thief series has blasting your way out with a rocket launcher been a total non-option.
The Thief series seems to have been staggeringly popular - so why hasn't someone (other than the fan community) taken up the mantle from where it was dropped?
Vigil on 5/3/2007 at 04:35
The cynic in me wants to point out that while the stealth genre may not have come to great things, the stealth minigame became a terribly irritating trend for several years and made everyone quite tired of having the mechanic ham-handedly foisted upon them.
I imagine we're now settling down to a more relaxed approach to integrating stealth elements into other genres, in which sneaking and hiding in shadows are as unremarkable as crouching or standing still to improve one's aim. Which still leaves room for games in which remaining undetected is the core premise, of course.
For the record there's a few other games/serieses that fall into this genre: Metal Gear Solid, Hitman, Riddick and the upcoming Assassin's Creed spring to mind. Call of Juarez also had a significant sneaking component.
Zapmeister on 5/3/2007 at 04:48
Quote Posted by Vigil
I imagine we're now settling down to a more relaxed approach to integrating stealth elements into other genres, in which sneaking and hiding in shadows are as unremarkable as crouching or standing still to improve one's aim. Which still leaves room for games in which remaining undetected is the core premise, of course.
Sure. But for me, the idea that it's not OK to just kill anyone and everyone that gets in your way is important to the way I think and feel as I'm playing. All these assassin games (like Hitman) are no substitute for the kind of game I'm talking about. Thief has been the only one AFAIK.
Ziemanskye on 5/3/2007 at 07:45
But it is okay to do that in Thief, in most missions.
It's a simple personal choice on your part that means you aren't. Well, that and the fact the NPCs can mess you over about as well as you can them, but that is increasingly true in modern games as it presents a more natural and logical challenge.
Much like Hitman in fact, with the exception that by concept someone has to die eventually (usually only one or two people per level though, unless you mess up), it's a different stealth mechanic since it's about hiding in plain sight rather than in the shadows, but that doesn't outright stop it being a stealth game.
Riddick, and Manhunt, are both excellent games, with a heavy stealth component, but I'd have a hard time making that their calling the way it is in Thief or Hitman, just because both liked to mix the pacing and things up more than the Thief series ever did (as far as I know/remember): both become much less sneaky and more actiony when you have decent access to firearms for example.
sparhawk on 5/3/2007 at 10:32
The only game, that really comes closer to a Thiefe style stealth experience is "Sniper Elite". It is a World War II shooter, like all the rest, but the nice thing is that it actually is really about stealth. You have to be carefull and observant to find your enemies. Since you are a sniper you can't really take on many enemies at once, and usually loose this way. OK, the mainfocus is still to kill your enemies usually. It is a WWII shooter after all, but it is the first game that reminded me a lot of Thief in that regards.
Actually it got quite bad ratings in the newsmag because of that. The tester found it to boring, as you mainly try to creep around, watch the environment and figure silently out where the enemy is. Also the AI is not bad. I had several cases where I noticed an enemy, started to shoot it, and then his comrades went behind my back by running taking routes to evade me to take me by surprise. This kind of advanced AI behaviour I haven't seen in many games so far, which makes it much more interesting to play. A definite recommendation for a Thief fan.
Cronkhite on 5/3/2007 at 16:08
Quote:
Which still leaves room for games in which remaining undetected is the core premise, of course.
And I would strongly argue that even T:DS was a deviation from this core premise. Eidos/Ion Storm recognized a market trend and fit their product to spec. It shows.
I think the consumer base dictates the great majority of game development, and the consumer base generally doesn't want to be confined to stealthy games that focus less on combat and more on non-confrontation. I'd say this is a huge reason why T:DS allowed for a Thug/Assassin gameplay style--and even encouraged it as the easiest style to use.
Edit:
Here's an interesting excerpt I pulled from a review of
Sniper Elite:
"A good deal of the challenge here is derived from the fact that it's usually far more effective to outfox your enemies than it is to outgun them."
In my mind, this is how Thief was supposed to be designed, but it really isn't in T:DS. It's far more effective to kill everyone in a level than to surreptitiously sneak around your potential enemies. The
Sniper Elite review alludes to why this might be: people don't have the patience for it! Right on, in my view. Well, most people don't anyhow. Viva la Twitch FPS.
SD on 5/3/2007 at 17:57
Quote Posted by Zapmeister
The Thief series seems to have been staggeringly popular - so why hasn't someone (other than the fan community) taken up the mantle from where it was dropped?
Well, look at it this way. Both firms that have had charge of the
Thief franchise are now dead.
Are you familiar with the term "poisoned chalice"? ;)
poroshin on 5/3/2007 at 19:13
Pure stealth games haven't taken off (I don't even know others other than Thief), because the general public doesn't want to take the time and patience it takes to play these games right. Most people can't grasp this concept. I watched a friend of mine try to get into Thief. It was pitiful. Running all over the place with the sword, etc.
Vigil on 5/3/2007 at 19:20
That's like saying that golf games haven't taken off because the general public doesn't want to take the time and patience it takes to play these games right.
Some people just don't like golf.
Gingerbread Man on 5/3/2007 at 19:24
Quote Posted by sparhawk
Actually it got quite bad ratings in the newsmag because of that. The tester found it to boring, as you mainly try to creep around, watch the environment and figure silently out where the enemy is.
That's pretty much the primary reason stealth games don't seem to be that popular with publishers / consumers -- or at least why stealth-type games generally also have a way for a trigger-happy rocket-launcher-wielding nutbar to finish the levels unpenalised. Which sucks.
I'm actually a little surprised that there hasn't been a Myst-style game where you can punch things instead of solving the puzzles. For some (if not most) people, things that require patience or cunning or observational skills are apparently either boring or too hard.
Which also explains why there seems to be a new "lol I blows everything up!" game every quarter, and discriminating gamers like us are forced to develop our own stealth mods and such on our own time and without backing or interest from the publishing world.
Don't get me wrong, I love games like Armed and Dangerous or Quake where the gunfire and the explosions pretty much solve every problem for you, but I greatly prefer games that require me to think a little harder than "where's the next bad guy and how much ammo does my shotgun still have?"
