Zapmeister on 30/3/2007 at 03:47
Quote Posted by Ziemanskye
Oh, and of couse you *can* kill or blackjack damn near everyone in Thief - in all of the games
On expert level, you usually can't kill anything human, and to successfully blackjack, you must employ stealth. This is what makes the gameplay starkly different to those other games - you cannot dispense with the stealth aspect.
Ziemanskye on 30/3/2007 at 15:08
On expert difficulty where you choose to make things harder for yourself.
IE, you aren't playing the game the way it's "meant" to be played (which is where the Normal or equivalent difficulty is). I'm not trying to say that's a bad thing - it's as much a problem with the concept of difficulty levels - but it does mean that you shouldn't apply so high a standard to Thief when you're deliberately taking it out of context.
You can't dispense with the stealth in Splinter Cell: I've only really played Pandora Tomorrow (which I think is the second one), but get caught = game over in a lot of it, which since that is applied even at the lowest difficulty setting is very much how the game is meant to be played.
There you have a game you can't dispence with the stealth aspect of: in Thief, it takes a different skill-set to play that way, but by and large you can choose do without it, though in most of the games on my list the reason you *choose* stealth is because it's easier and keeps you alive longer. Only in rare get caught = instant fail levels (which I think most stealth games tend to have at some point, but don't make as much of a regularity of as SC seems to) is it utterly indispensible.
nicked on 31/3/2007 at 08:38
I can't see that Normal difficulty is how it's meant to be played. Else why bother with the extra objectives etc. at all. I'd argue that, looking at the design of Thief, it was made for Expert difficulty and then made easier for the other difficulty levels afterwards. I think that a lot of people, given the knowledge that they're missing out on extra objectives, would pick Expert mode to play on, even though it's harder to complete.
Ziemanskye on 31/3/2007 at 09:18
My point is that it is *extra* stuff. The engine can handle it no bother, and it likely doesn't take that long to implement (and it's a damn sight better than just making the enemies have more hitpoints/stronger attacks, though that might happen as well). Notice how few games - especially outside the more stealthy and tactical genres - try to make the extra difficutly levels more of a challenge that way?
And remember that hideous statistic: 80% of games are never finished - most people want games they can complete, so choose lower settings so that they can get through them. Harder difficutly modes are a bonus extra for people who like the game enough for the extra challenge when playing through an additional time - only rarely, and usually in the case of sequals -would I say that the Hard modes are what the game was designed for; simply because the designers know most of the people who buy the game wont ever consider the option.
SubJeff on 31/3/2007 at 10:39
I don't think that the 80% stat really applies to TTLG members though. Long time member like you and I are usually pretty keen (hardcore?) gamers. We finish games more often than, say, casual players, I'm sure.
Stealth is a niche genre, even though it's seen quite an explosion in popularity recently. Hard stealth, like Thief on Expert, is even more niche. It's purer, harder, and has less killing. IMHO Expert is the only way to play Thief.
Ziemanskye on 31/3/2007 at 11:55
Can't argue with that, except the inclusion of me in the uber-hardcore segment. Flattering of you perhaps, but I've *never* played Thief on Expert mode except for the odd experiment - certainly never finished even a single level though, because I felt it more limiting and hard just for the sake of being harder rather than adding anything to the experience (as far as I was concerned).
Maybe I am missing something important, but if they change the actual story of the game on different difficulty modes then it's just dumb design as far as I'm concerned. Note: I mean actual pre-plotted story - obviously the "show-don't-tell"/gaming space stories are going to change when you add extra objectives and mix the rules up.
(And yes, I do finish most of my games: I've a growing number I'm not likely to though, mostly because they're crap and I've lost interest or are damaged-disc preowned rather than because they're too hard/too long though)
SubJeff on 31/3/2007 at 16:28
The extra objectives are only part of the Expert experience. The ban on killing is great, and it just makes so much sense.
[SPOILER]In Thief 1 there are whole sections of levels you cannot reach unless you play on Expert. The first time you meet a Haunt is several levels earlier and the way you meet him/it was very cool.[/SPOILER] You miss all that on any other difficulty setting, and I like the fact that you are rewarded for playing on hard. I always play games on the hardest setting from the start unless they are known for being really difficult anyway. Makes them last longer. (Although I don't care if I'm not into a game - I only got D3 for TDM ).
Ziemanskye on 31/3/2007 at 20:09
Rewarded for playing on hard is very rare. Probably because, like I said, most people will never know it's there. This is the first I've ever heard of Thief being so evil as to lock away areas that are inaccessible unless you're playing on Expert mode.
And I don't agree that the ban on killing makes sense: That is just an issue of personal interpretation however, since a game about a thief makes sense not to be an assassin, but to me a game set in a brutal steam-punk fantasy world makes sense to belittle the value of life and let anyone kill/main so long as they can get away from the (corrupt and not so effective) law enforcers. So, personal choice on how much that fits.
However, this has digressed a bit: my original point was that a lot of this thread has been complaining about a lack of Stealth games, then putting down the plentiful (well, ish) supply of them because they don't live up to the standards Thief sets. Which is as dumb as saying there's hardly any FPS games because they don't live up to the standards of (insert personal favourite FPS game here).
RavynousHunter on 1/4/2007 at 02:35
IMO, i think Thief is to be played many times, when you begin, you goto Easy (or whatever it is), then go one level higher, and keep goin up until you get to the highest difficulty level. I dont think youre supposed to just JUMP into Extra Hard mode right off tha bat in any game, unless youve already played it enough to have a pretty good feel for it.
Thief = hideously high replay value
:thumb:
sparhawk on 1/4/2007 at 09:14
I usually play all games on highest difficulty. If it's to hard for me, then I switch back to an easier one, but this happened, so far, only with Quake 3 Arena. Don't remember any other games where I did not play on highest difficulty, becuase usually they are ridicoulously easy on lower settings.
