Vancore on 9/3/2007 at 04:11
Quote Posted by sparhawk
You don't make business by finding excuses. Not being a game producer, not having enough money, not having people, not ...
Fact is that you don't need to have a lot of money. You can also do a good game with a minimum of money. You have to get your ass moving though. Of course not everybody might be able to do this. If you don't have the money to buy the skills, you should have some of the skills yourself, but I doubt that you have to spend millions of dollars just to create a good game.
Of course it doesn't happen a lot. After all it is a lot of work. You don't fine money on the street, just as you don't find the game finished in the mod scene.
Well, that was my point. Who *IS* the game industry?
Well, basically anyone that can get into whatever game store is nearest you would be the game industry. If you can get in there your part of it, if you can't your a modder. The difference is being as big as the Sundance Festival is to the Movie scene. Or in my own experiance, editing video for TV as compared to just doing it for conventions.
The Mod community isn't the gaming industry but it is the place to find stuff you can't get in the gaming industry. If it were it would be making money and it isn't but it is a nice way to grant yourself a bit of fame. Anyone who strives to make something without profit in mind is just out to make others or themselfs happy. When I edit a vid I first aim to please myself, once I finish I can only hope that others get as much pleasure out of it that I did. If they do sweet, if not, well I tried and at least I like it. I believe this is sort of what modders feel when they create mods. I'm not a part of the Video Editing Industry because I don't make money off what I do, I am part of a video editing community though, much like modders are part of the Gaming community.
So yea, you don't need millions to create a good game but you do need thousands to market that game you labored on to be considered part of the gaming industry and not the community. An awesome stealth game made in the Community will need to be bought up by someone in the Industry (or someone with the money to get into it) so its making a profit which then makes it 'The Gaming Industry'.
LGS was part of the Industry, now its part of its past, part of the community and nobody seems to be wanting to take up their mantle in the industry. At least no one with money... well at least for thief, ss2 has bioshock supposedly.
Zapmeister on 9/3/2007 at 04:30
Quote Posted by p7eter
another problem is lack of viable multiplayer. I dont even like multiplayer, but most game companies want to tack it on to boost sales.
Yes, I think there is a perception out there that multiplayer is imperative. Bethesda Softworks had to repeatedly state that Oblivion would not do multiplayer. They seemed to understand that multiplayer is
not a vital ingredient for a successful game, and I reckon their sales figures for Oblivion probably prove them right.
sparhawk on 9/3/2007 at 10:52
Quote Posted by Vancore
So yea, you don't need millions to create a good game but you do need thousands to market that game you labored on to be considered part of the gaming industry and not the community.
But that's two different things. If you have developed a good game, you can still go to a publisher and sell it to him. That's how any new game company starts usually. The major problem comes in, when you haven't developed your game yet, and you already sell it to publisher, upon which he will take a heavy influence. But that doesn't need to be the case. Bascially it depends on how motivated you are, and how fast you can create your game. To interest a publisher, of course you have to stay in the current technology, which will limit the time you can spend on it, before it gets to outdated. Also depends on the particular game though.
Jashin on 9/3/2007 at 13:25
Quote Posted by sparhawk
But that's two different things. If you have developed a good game, you can still go to a publisher and sell it to him. That's how any new game company starts usually. The major problem comes in, when you haven't developed your game yet, and you already sell it to publisher, upon which he will take a heavy influence. But that doesn't need to be the case. Bascially it depends on how motivated you are, and how fast you can create your game. To interest a publisher, of course you have to stay in the current technology, which will limit the time you can spend on it, before it gets to outdated. Also depends on the particular game though.
Well, that's a little optimistic.
Usually a startup running on very little money would have a hand-full of people only, ~2-3. From there producing a demo to get the interest of a publisher would take quite a while - a year or two usually, and we're talking constant full-time development. After getting the demo done, fishing around for publisher is doubly tough. Provided you have done a little PR and are packing nice eyecandy (project offset), it's going to be difficult otherwise.
Modding is probably the better proving ground. Mod teams are able to transition to full-time devs as individuals and as teams. Mods have an audience from the basegame and +whatever the subject of their mod will entice. Modders work at their leisure and can select from a bigger pool of talent to help while paying little mind to the legal aspects of a product, etc.
Nothing worthy has ever been easy.
henke on 9/3/2007 at 17:40
Quote Posted by Vancore
releasing the game half-assed because they don't want to invest any more money in something that they might not see a profit on so might as well grab as much as they can in the current state it is (Thinking Stolen suffered this from what I've read).
Yeah, I actually played through
Stolen on PS2 recently, and it was alright. With some extra cash invested in a proper storyline and some gameplay-tweaking it could've been really good. It's also the only
true stealth-game I've played besides Thief. You do have the option of knocking out guards but since they wake up after a short while it's really only a last-resort option. There were plenty of picking-a-lock-before-the-guard-comes-around-the-corner-moments and Prince of Persia-esque acrobatics to keep things interesting. And in a Sci-Fi setting too. Complete with flying surveilance robots, computer-terminals to hack and James Bond-stylee gadgets. Parts where you were hanging from a wire, negotiating laser-grids to snatch the jewel from the case, or rapelling down the side of a building, that sorta stuff. Linear as hell tho, and frustratingly difficult in many places.
(
http://imageshack.us)
Inline Image:
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5081/24po2.jpgAnyway, any Thief fans with a PS2 and a desperate hunger for a new stealth-game should pick it up, if they find it on budget for cheap. Stay the hell away from the PC version tho, as it's riddled with bugs and the company shut down before any patch could be released. Dunno what the X-Box version is like.
(
http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/917966.asp?q=stolen) GameRankings entry (57%)
SD on 9/3/2007 at 20:52
I saw the PC version of Stolen in Poundland recently. Even at that price, I wasn't tempted.
SubJeff on 10/3/2007 at 08:36
Stolen is a damned blot in stealth game history. I know I suggested a sci-fi stealth game, but I meant a GOOD one. Publishers will be put off by the failure of Stolen because they're dumb and mass-market focused and all that.
Someone should do a sci-fi stealth total conversion. Sapphire Scar would have featured some stealth elements - shame it's dead (as I predicted it would be way back when). Could it be done with the Source engine? If only I had the time...
sparhawk on 10/3/2007 at 12:31
Quote Posted by Jashin
Well, that's a little optimistic.
I don't think so. :)
Quote:
Usually a startup running on very little money would have a hand-full of people only, ~2-3. From there producing a demo to get the interest of a publisher would take quite a while - a year or two usually, and we're talking constant full-time development.
That's right. Though with only 3 people it probably would take longer. :)
Quote:
After getting the demo done, fishing around for publisher is doubly tough. Provided you have done a little PR and are packing nice eyecandy (project offset), it's going to be difficult otherwise.
Of courseyou need a demo that shows the actual game, along with a proper project planning. Budget planning, timeline, milestones etc.. If you just develop a game and try to find a publisher you will have a hard time, because they are more business man then gamers.
Quote:
Modding is probably the better proving ground. Mod teams are able to transition to full-time devs as individuals and as teams.
That's my point. As one can see with the Darkmod team, we are now working about 2.5 years and are quite well advanced already. If we would have made this as a commercial endeavor, it could have worked just the same, and it might even give more incentive to work on it. So after three years of development time, it would reasonable to have a demo that is so far ahead, that you should easily be able to attract the attention of a publisher, assuming that the gameidea itself is attractive enough as well.
Quote:
Mods have an audience from the basegame and +whatever the subject of their mod will entice. Modders work at their leisure and can select from a bigger pool of talent to help while paying little mind to the legal aspects of a product, etc.
That's not true. As a modder you have to look for the legal pitfalls just like a commercial developer. Only difference is that, if you didn't look hard enough, you might loos your work, but no money. But we are assuming that we want to finish a game, so this is not really different. :)
Quote:
Nothing worthy has ever been easy.
Yo. :)
Vancore on 11/3/2007 at 00:56
Well in the end your still going to need someone with money marketing your game at your local store for it to be considered part of the Gaming Industry. Of course getting into that Industry by making a name for yourself in the Community by modding is a very good choice to be sure but the Industry is about making the money... or just being on the shelfs of your local merchant.
Hell, I love concepts such as TheDarkMod and BlackMesa and I wish them the best of luck and I hope to play them one day. Although the dark mod is more of a modding tool for others to make Thiefy games and Blackmesa is a remake of a game so copyright disallows that (Unless Valve is feeling generous). Not sure if either of them will make it into the Industry though... or if they really want to (Is that your goal?).
Looking at that wiki page for stealth games (which I thought you did a good job) it does seem that the Industry knows they can make money off a good stealth game. One without the focus of killing others is another thing alltogather.
