Goldmoon Dawn on 19/5/2006 at 20:08
Again, it is important to understand the history of Looking Glass. They emerged in the wake of Ultimas IV and V. The entire premise of these two classic rpgs was to not kill, like the other mindless rpgs of the day, but rather to find alternatives to completing goals. Many gamers and designers out there believe Ultima IV to be in the top 10 games ever conceived. Ultima V built on an elite method of gameplay and virtue. It is no surprise that Looking Glass followed in these footsteps with Thief. It is one of the many ingredients in the games ahead of its time sense of realism.
The point is in Ultima you could kill everything and win, with much opposition of course. You could also avoid nearly all fighting and win, with many open doors. The choice became the players, based on his own virtue. Having this element in Thief not only makes it that much more realistic, but that much more fun! :ebil:
Domarius on 19/5/2006 at 20:19
My argument is not that there shouldn't be any combat! I've played Deus Ex, I've played Ultima 7, 8 and 9, I KNOW what the whole "freedom of choice" thing is, sheesh.
I believe it IS possible to make a stealth game where it is ultimately easier to play stealthy, if you're good at it. Takes more skill, but you are rewarded for being good at it.
There is nothing wrong with this principal, it applies to real life - if someone's skills lay in stealth more than combat, then it follows that they will have an easier time being stealthy. A video game emulates you having the skills that the character does, from fighting, to shooting, to being stealthy. Which does Garrett do best, in your opinion?
It's just so fundamentally wrong to accept that in a game called "Thief", combat is the easiest option, and stealth is only fun if you force yourself to do it instead, because it's a less sucessful choice of action.
And it's important to also understand why this is; its NOT because combat is inherently easier, its because the AI is inherently DUMB. What is happening is you are exploiting their stupidity. The aim is to develop a game that tries to balance this stupidity out in other ways, and in doing this, you have the choice, as a developer, to make stealth easier or combat easier, depending on how you penalise the player, and in Thief, for a game supposedly qualified as a "stealth" game, they don't seem to have got it quite right.
Goldmoon Dawn on 19/5/2006 at 20:49
I just mean that most Thieves also know that Thief started as a 3d based action game with an "rpg environment". The fact that they narrowed Garrett down into a Thief was an interesting choice.
Domarius on 19/5/2006 at 20:51
Yes, especially considering that this supposed Thief can confront and take out multiple guards by force more easily than with stealth.
Goldmoon Dawn on 19/5/2006 at 20:57
Two things:
Quote Posted by Domarius
I believe it IS possible to make a stealth game where it is ultimately
easier to play stealthy, if you're good at it. Takes more skill, but you are rewarded for being good at it.
There is nothing wrong with this principal, it applies to real life - if someone's skills lay in stealth more than combat, then it follows that they will have an easier time being stealthy. A video game emulates you having the skills that the character does, from fighting, to shooting, to being stealthy. Which does Garrett do best, in your opinion?
This right here I completely agree with you all the way! Stealth. I like the idea of "thiefy advancements".
Quote Posted by Domarius
It's just so fundamentally wrong to accept that in a game called "Thief", combat is the easiest option, and stealth is only fun if you force yourself to do it instead, because it's a less sucessful choice of action..
Lest we forget that as an initiate to the order, one doesn't already have this game mastered. Rather, a new player will face certain doom if he tries Thief the first time "unarmed". It takes quite a while actually, to first master the Project. Years sometimes. Either way, once we have acheived mastery, we can then talk like this.
I only speak of that crucial time period where players at the time were first discovering the Project as it was first coming out. Thief II saw a new crop of fans, as did part III. Each crop has their own special little memories of the series, but the Project people are the best Thieves. :cheeky:
ZylonBane on 19/5/2006 at 21:27
Quote Posted by Domarius
...in Thief, for a game supposedly qualified as a "stealth" game, they don't seem to have got it quite right.
You're just begging to become the community punching bag, aren't you?
Goldmoon Dawn on 19/5/2006 at 21:44
Quote Posted by Domarius
Yeah - it may not be realistic that hitting someone makes them see again after a blackjack, but seriously, in TDP and TMA, it's way too easy to get a bucket load of guards to chase you, drop one flashbomb, and then knock them all out like shooting ducks in a barrel.
Then what is the point of being stealthy when you can run around and get all the guards to chase you, and take them all out with a single flash bomb by blackjacking them one by one?
That's what I said - an exploit. Name any other aspect of the game you can abuse to make the game easier than playing stealthy, and I'll show you another exploit.
Yes, especially considering that this supposed Thief can confront and take out multiple guards by force more easily than with stealth.
I don't mean to point out the obvious here, but the tactic that you speak of is rather well known to Thieves near and far!
For it is the last resort at fun, release, and laughter a Thief has not so much in the OM's as much as the FM's and even then it's usualy an exploit of an exploit!
Alvar on 19/5/2006 at 22:07
I was just about to post sopmething here, but this person beat me to it:
Quote Posted by kamyk
I'm sure I could find some thread to put this in, but thread necromancy, etc...
I started out with TDS, and it hooked me in, and then I played the first two games. I played TDS about a year ago, and have been playing with dromed, the first two games, and various FMs since.
Recently I threw in TDS to revisit The Cradle, and I must say that in retrospect that I now understand entirely the older players complaints about TDS. Don't get me wrong, I love TDS, but my god are the controls rough in comparison to the first two. I tried to lean, and kept moving while doing so??? And the movements are so choppy and exaggerated. Precisely which tweaks do I use to get it to control more like the first two games? I don't want to change the key layout, or atomic blue, or menus or anything, just the character movements for Garret.
And while I loved the cityscape the first time through, trying to get from my save to The Cradle, instead of just starting there was actually quite annoying.
I think I will throw in RTTC now...
sparhawk on 20/5/2006 at 11:28
Quote Posted by Domarius
It's just so fundamentally wrong to accept that in a game called "Thief", combat is the easiest option, and stealth is only fun if you force yourself to do it instead, because it's a less sucessful choice of action.
It seems youy memory is screwed up after such a long time. Combat is definitely NOT easier in Thief. In fact, when I started to play Thief first, I came from the FPS genre, and I was quite good in Doom and Quake 2. When I played Thief the first time, naturaly I thought this is yet another shooter style game, and tried to get on the AI this way. Only because it was INHERENTLY HARDER to combat my way through, I started to explore other ways of completing the objectives, so LGS did it exactly right. Stealth is the easier option in Thief, but it takes more time. If you try to sneak your way past the first time, and also for the first time try to confront a guard or a haunt, you easily can see what comes out the harder to do. And it is NOT the sneaking.
Domarius on 20/5/2006 at 13:28
@Spar, as usual you're coming in late and missing out the point of the argument, and just taking the most recent thing out of context. I was referring to the flashbomb tactic I described at least twice before. I'm not going to explain it again, so if you don't know what it is, don't expect me to reply to anything you have to say.
@ZB - heh, maybe if I just insult everyone instead of making posts of substance, everyone will be too afraid to use me as a punching bag. It works for you.
Anyway looks like you've given up. You defend the classic games to the death as if they are flawless. Everything has its flaws, you learn from the past and better it. That's what we're doing with TDM.
@Goldmoon - Yeah what you're saying is true, about only finding these "confrontational" exploits AFTER we're experts. But I wasn't saying this is the case from the outset, and yes when you first start playing, exploits like this are far from obvious and you do better playing stealthy.
I'm just acknowledging that as an advanced player, I've found a weakness in Thief 2's fundamental of stealth, because that's what we do as TDM developers.
Wait and see how we addressed the flashbomb tactic. It's a surprise :)
