Tannar on 11/12/2018 at 18:13
Exactly!
Yandros on 11/12/2018 at 18:22
I don't think anyone was saying campaigns can't be done, just that trying to get one done in one year for, or in lieu of, the contest was unreasonable.
Azaran on 11/12/2018 at 18:54
Quote Posted by Yandros
No. Just no. It's been well established that the content that was released is far too incomplete to really do this, which is one main reason why it's not been done in all these years.
Yeah, but there's mission names, general storylines, and some concept art that could be greatly expanded by talented authors. It wouldn't be a stretch to recreate that Waking the Dead mission, a castle full of necromancers, etc
Yandros on 11/12/2018 at 19:21
I didn't mean to imply the released material couldn't be of value or inspiration. Only that trying to complete Thief 2 Gold as a full blown campaign with strict adherence to LGS' original plans and vision probably isn't doable (if for no other reason than we don't have a complete picture of their plans and vision for it).
trefoilknot on 11/12/2018 at 20:51
Quote Posted by pukey brunster
Thief FM contests missions, past and present, exist inside certain restrictions. That is the beauty of it: to challenge authors, new and experienced, to work within those boundaries, and to find out what can be done with it. It's fun, and it opens avenues not otherwise explored for those who participate, and hopefully, to surprise those who play...
...[A]ll contests have a specific set of challenges that authors must work within. That is the entire point.
Quote Posted by gamophyte
Right, it isn't a
contest without a challenge, and the challenge is what draws in builders. "Look at this thing I made with the same set of restrictions".
Absolutely, limitation can force creativity and thus spur clever innovations. No question. But we've got about two dozen recently released missions subject to the "stock only" limitation. It's hard to argue that we should reprise the exact same limitation, ~3 months later, for the sheer "limits force creative thinking!" factor. There are tons of other limitations that haven't been used [as recently] that would also force creative thinking. For example, I've always loved small map contests. Creating a 64x64x64 map that's worth spending several hours in requires tremendous creativity! (To clarify, I'm not saying we should go this route, just using it as an example.)
Given the circumstances, I think the best argument in favor of the "stock only" limitation would be some variant on the following: "The goal is to celebrate the 20th anniversary of Thief 2. Accordingly, we want the entries to mimic the look/feel of the original game as closely as possible. The use of custom content runs counter to that goal and should therefore be banned."
Fair enough. That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold---I simply don't share the sentiment. It's perfectly valid to allow nostalgia to drive the rules of the contest, it just wouldn't be my personal preference. But if it is driven by nostalgia, we should be honest about it. Not try to argue that some other consideration is the reason for a "stock only" limitation. The other arguments (which I've seen so far) don't seem to hold water.
If we want to impose limits for the sake of making the entries more interesting (a la pukey brunster's and gamophyte's comments), I'd be very much on board with that. I think there are a lot of interesting limitations that could be imposed.
Renault on 12/12/2018 at 18:14
Just my 0.02, but I thought the real challenge of a contest was creating a mission that was better than everyone else's? Or at the very least, to create a "good" mission that players will enjoy. I don't think we need to limit ourselves to stock resources to provide a challenge for people.
With the T1G contest, it made sense. T1G has a distinct style, much of which was changed when T2 came out. Plus, it was the original Thief game. So I get going old school there. But it just happened, is happening. Do we really want to have two stock resource contests in a row?
There have been dozens of contests over the years, but most of the time any restrictions were usually centered around the fact that there was a time limit of 3-6 months to create something. So that made sense too. But in this case, with a year to build, I don't see why authors shouldn't be allowed to used some custom material.
ValmontPhl on 12/12/2018 at 21:15
In a bit short of 20 years, FM's have gone from this:
Inline Image:
http://www.tabernacleofmoses.org/dump000.pngto this:
Inline Image:
http://www.tabernacleofmoses.org/dump001.pngI see no reason to limit an Anniversary Contest, which is really a celebration, to honor LGS' initial contributions and the FM Thief universe. Encouraging the continued inspiration within the community will ensure it's prosperity and survival.
20 years. What are we celebrating if not the leaps and bounds made & abilities utilized by the fine authors here?
Random_Taffer on 12/12/2018 at 21:18
Newdark would allow you to do that second shot with mostly stock and stock-derived assets.
Keeper Flix on 12/12/2018 at 21:28
I doubt that the first fm's looked like your first screenshot, they were probably at 640x480 and didn't use high res textures :)
Psych0sis on 12/12/2018 at 22:30
Quote Posted by Random_Taffer
Newdark would allow you to do that second shot with mostly stock and stock-derived assets.
Yep, in fact 2-3 missions from the TDP20AC look more impressive and dense than the 2nd photo, all using stock/stock-derived.