PinkDot on 9/12/2018 at 15:29
Quote Posted by Yandros
Almost all of the other contests over the last 15+ years have been for T2 and have allowed custom content (while restricting in other ways, such as size or theme). We only have one 20th Anniversary Contest for Thief 2 and I don't see why we wouldn't want it to be like the current contest
Because it's unnatural restriction, driven by nostalgia mostly.
Quote Posted by Yandros
(...) - plus allow usage of T1G content as well, and derived resources. Anything else is just another contest IMHO. One change I can see, though - perhaps allowing custom .bin files which are stock models with only the texture changed would be nice, as it would make it much easier to have a variety of objects and AI's without violating the stock and stock-derived only rule.
So, that would be yet another exception from the rule, which kinda proves, that this idea is too limiting and doesn't add up.
I think there's a false notion of "stock resources only" idea to be more inclusive. It isn't. It puts off a large group of people feeling fed up with looking at the same stuff in just different configurations.
It's also limiting in terms of what story you want to tell, what kind of world you want to take players to explore. It limits the gameplay experience to just the core elements, which are part of almost every mission. Surely, this can be enjoyable to many, but a broader formula still fits all those nostalgic people too. Surely, if T2Gold was out, LGS would have introduced new resources to convey the story they wanted. Why could we not follow the same path?
skacky on 9/12/2018 at 15:41
I disagree that stock is limiting when it comes to people participating. I'd argue that stock, on the contrary, is exactly what beginners want from a contest considering they don't need to learn how to import stuff or configure things. They can just jump in, play with what's at their disposal and finish a mission relatively easily. More options really doesn't necessarily mean better outcomes. It also makes people begin on more or less even grounds. Besides, you can get incredibly creative with stock. Just look at some of the missions made for the contest, e.g. The Whistling of the Gears or Catacombs of Knoss. These do some things I never thought would be possible.
Anyhow, we will most probably make a poll near mid-February that will touch upon the inclusion of custom assets versus stock/stock derivative only for this upcoming contest. We'll see what the outcome will be.
Judith on 9/12/2018 at 16:11
Quote:
Lets celebrate the T2 20th anniversary by showing the world how far thief has evolved in 20 years.
+1. T1 was a celebration of the past, let T2 anniversary be about the present and future.
bbb on 9/12/2018 at 18:05
This thread reminds me of old threads about which game you liked better, TG or TMA. Everyone has an opinion and no one is really right or wrong. I like Skacky’s idea of doing a poll. Either way, some authors may not join the contest, but in the end we will end up with new missions to play. I for one think the 20th Anniversary contest was a huge success and whatever the rules of a T2 contest, it will be a big success as well.
fortuni on 9/12/2018 at 19:47
Seeing there are opinions on both stock vs custom why have any restrictions in the first place? Why not allow authors to use either stock or custom objects and let the missions be judged on the merits of gameplay.
Then all authors can participate and they would be the people to choose whether to use stock or custom objects.
We could then have 2 votes, one for custom and one for stock and have 2 winners, after all in this current contest almost every mission I have played so far should be the winner.
downwinder on 9/12/2018 at 19:58
in order to be a 20th anniversary for thief 2 ,seems to me you would want it stock for at that time there were no other options
also if you all remember thief 2 over all felt bare anyway
if we can deal with mass sand bags in t1 contest i am sure we can handle a few more barrels in thief 2 contest or what ever the most used item will be to fill an area
the idea of the contest is to shine a spotlight on t2 on how it was just 20 years later
seems to be from some comments its the "give an inch take a mile" with what rules you want
i say stock t2 resources period
as you all saw the t1 contest has such amazing level design i don't think them having to use stock affect mission
if you want a custom map just don't have it as a contest entry
its going to be the 20th people its a big deal,lets not get greedy with what you all want and put t2 first in the contest=i hope you understand what i ment there
downwinder on 9/12/2018 at 20:03
also items alone dont make the mission ,as fortuni said himself almost all the mission in t1 contest for 20th were winners
so why are people wanting to change the pureness of t2,just come up with a great map/idea for mission,i don't feel custom object will over all make the mission better
couldn't you just add a texture pack to mission if you want it different
and for the record i never used a texture pack myself as i have 1 serious rule i follow=i play each mission how the author intended it to be,to show respect to the map author
PinkDot on 9/12/2018 at 22:01
Quote:
the idea of the contest is to shine a spotlight on t2 on how it was just 20 years later
If your son / daughter was celebrating 20th birthday, would you give them a photo frame with a picture of how they looked like on their first day on this world? Or would you try to fit your gift to whatever they're into right now?
Anyway - this was my last post in this thread. A poll would be a good idea - let majority decide.
P.S.I just hope that when (if) it comes to organizing ND10AC in 2022, we'll be all looking into the future, rather than past... ;)downwinder on 9/12/2018 at 22:20
we had 20 years of custom fan missions,why would i want to take the 20th special event to see the same things we been playing entire time,wouldn't it be cool to see then use stock stuff and see how good of mission they can come up with ,more likly post contest all missions will be custom
just going by how amazing thief 1 contest came out,excluding sand bags lol a joke i felt it was some of the best mission in a long time and for 1 year only wow
to me it seems ovious,but this is just my view and means nothing,the people making the maps in the end should be the ones to decide
trefoilknot on 10/12/2018 at 00:38
As an economist, here's my take:
We, as a community, want FM authors to invest their efforts into producing fun, creative, beautiful, immersive and innovative missions. The problem arises when the competition framework weights these components differently from how we, as players, value these components. For example, in the most recent contest "Story," "Visuals," and "Gameplay/Enjoyment" all received equal weight. Do we actually value these equally, when playing the FMs?
For authors with the technical know-how, using custom objects/textures is a relatively simple way to improve the overall look of a mission, and therefore often the easiest way to move up the scoreboard. This causes two problems: (1) on the intensive margin, authors invest effort that could have been invested in designing a better map or story, etc... into custom content (the over-investment problem); and (2) on the extensive margin, authors without that technical know-how opt out, as they feel they can't realistically compete, even with some clever ideas (the opt-out problem).
Using a "stock-resources only" restriction is a very heavy-handed approach to solving these issues. It levels the playing field, and eliminates the over-investment problem, which [arguably] gives more novice mappers a fighting chance. However, it also excessively constrains some mappers, who therefore opt out. We haven't solved the opt-out problem, we've just changed which group of mappers decides not to participate.
I think a better solution is to change the rubric. If we don't want FM makers to invest too much effort into creating/using custom content, just don't reward it so much. For example, change the "Visuals" category to "Architecture/Design." And increase the weight on "Plot" and "Gameplay/Enjoyment."
(Disclaimer: I spend most of my days researching how proper performance evaluation/incentive design can solve all the world's problems. "When you're a hammer...")
