Yandros on 11/12/2018 at 01:49
Well said Pukey, I agree. And I get the feeling that some here may mistakenly think that the TDP20 Contest and the proposal here for TMA20 is for stock resources ONLY, but that's not true - it is stock and stock-derived resources only. Some authors chose not to do much customization by deriving new resources from stock ones, but others went crazy with it with brilliant results. One need look no further than Pukey and Tannar's own entry to see a mission which at first glance looks mostly custom, because it was so well done, and because they were challenged by the rule and found a way to realize their vision for the mission(s) using their creativity.
In my opinion, allowing any custom content the author wishes goes against the spirit of celebrating the original game, would conflict with the TDP20 contest, and would make this pretty much just another FM contest, its only connection to TMA20 being the end date.
Psych0sis on 11/12/2018 at 11:10
Quote Posted by pukey brunster
Thief FM contests missions, past and present, exist inside certain restrictions. That is the beauty of it: to challenge authors, new and experienced, to work within those boundaries, and to find out what can be done with it. It's fun, and it opens avenues not otherwise explored for those who participate, and hopefully, to surprise those who play. If there is any evidence that restricting to stock assets doesn't scare creators away, well, duh. It's with this 20th anniversary contest we are all enjoying, authors and players alike. If anyone isn't enjoying what this contest has gifted us, then I suspect they haven't played the 23 missions included in this set.
We could argue that the challenges set by all previous contests weren't fun or fair.. so those who didn't want to participate, simply didn't. If we didn't want to participate, we made something else. It doesn't stop anyone from building.. it never stopped me, and we all want those missions, too. We have seen some great stuff from the ones who have worked inside those boundaries, however, that opened possibilities we hadn't thought of before.
I love custom assets, too. But all contests have a specific set of challenges that authors must work within. That is the entire point. If people don't want to participate inside such boundaries, then just make a mission and release it outside of the contest. No one is being forced, here. If you don't like the rules of a contest, then don't participate. We'll probably love what you make, too. But at this point, the previous suggestions to make T2 anniversary a 'no-idea-what-the-rules-are-contest' are pretty lame.
This is probably the best post so far that explains the whole "stock/stock derived textures only" side. Well said mate.
Yandros on 11/12/2018 at 14:00
No. Just no. It's been well established that the content that was released is far too incomplete to really do this, which is one main reason why it's not been done in all these years.
vfig on 11/12/2018 at 15:58
One of the exceptions to "stock resources" in TDP20AC was having a limited number of custom book artworks allowed. This was vital for me, since it allowed me to include my puzzle with crucial information presented in a diagram that players could figure out, and not simply text. Allowing some, but limited, meant I could have these plot-critical, gameplay-critical elements in the mission, that were unique and important to the mission.
But when we look at all the TDP20AC missions that want you to steal a McGuffin, the "no custom models" rule means I have stolen many identical scepters, horns of quintus, lucky hands of glory, and so on. It's in these plot-critical, gameplay-critical items that the rule is most detrimental.
So for a Thief 2 contest, if it does have a general "stock resources only" rule, I'd love to see an exception that was limited. For example, you're allowed a "budget" of 20 (for the sake of example) completely custom resources total: then authors decide what those resources should be according to what's important in their design: models, textures, book art, movies, meshes, music—all are allowed just as long as there's no more than 20 all together.
Psych0sis on 11/12/2018 at 16:17
Quote Posted by Yandros
No. Just no. It's been well established that the content that was released is far too incomplete to really do this, which is one main reason why it's not been done in all these years.
To be fair, I think that one mission in the "slums" district, and I use quotes cause it doesn't look anything like a slum at all, seems to be at least a good chunk of the way through to completion.
Though from the looks of it, its really linear and looks boring and would probably need a map layout redesign to have any chance of being interesting. And at that point, you might as well just... make your own mission, lol.
skacky on 11/12/2018 at 17:13
Quote Posted by vfig
So for a Thief 2 contest, if it does have a general "stock resources only" rule, I'd love to see an exception that was limited. For example, you're allowed a "budget" of 20 (for the sake of example) completely custom resources total: then authors decide what those resources should be according to what's important in their design: models, textures, book art, movies, meshes, music—all are allowed just as long as there's no more than 20 all together.
This is something we're also exploring, and I like this idea the best I think. Stock + derivatives + a finite amount of custom resources.
Tannar on 11/12/2018 at 17:32
I agree with Pukey completely. Having limitations in a contest is a good idea. Also, being limited to stock resources for this contest was challenging but forced us to really get familiar with them, and to be creative in their use. One suggestion I might make is that instead of true custom material, the authors be allowed to create new .bin files from stock objects. This will make it possible to have multiple versions of a stock object, just with recolored or otherwise altered stock textures. For example, the same couch model could be used with different textures so that every house doesn't have the exact same couch, etc.
Yandros on 11/12/2018 at 17:53
That idea has been proposed as well, and I like it, probably better than allowing some finite number of "true" custom resources.
gamophyte on 11/12/2018 at 17:58
Right, it isn't a contest without a challenge, and the challenge is what draws in builders. "Look at this thing I made with the same set of restrictions".
I'm an HD guy but if I think of HD as chocolate cake and OM assets as cheese cake, then the talent here made cheesecake with the best toppings, but in biting in you remember, on yeah cheese cake is ----ing good. These last missions show that, and some made an arrangement of maraschino cherries in light puffs of whip cream that I sat there looking at it in awe before digging in.
What am I saying? Not sure but I have a sweet tooth it seems. This contest had some of the best game play ever, showing a degree of where we are now in talent, regardless of stock resource restriction.
Edit: I was in the fated Hammer Imperium team, so I get the fear of campains, but honestly, it can be done with teams like Pinkdot says, but you need some online tools and docs to manage everything, there has to be a central guy which can be a real tosser.
