poroshin on 15/5/2009 at 14:48
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Agreed, and I think that the way to do it is to offer a wealth of options that will satisfy people who just want a pure Thief experience and those that prefer it to be a dark Assassins Creed.
Quote Posted by Queue
You have to consider what the vast majority of people, right or wrong as it's what they are being fed, play then ask yourself how well a pure stealth game could be received. Then again, Thief always gave you the option to kill with glee (arrows and a sword) if one really wanted to, so I wonder just how much of a "pure stealth" game it truly was/is.
This is a good point. If they can somehow make Thief 4 playable to us ghosting fans, and at the same time make it possible to shoot everyone with arrows and get away with it, I think that compromise could work. It would be appealing to the masses in allowing them slaughter, yet not sacrificing classical Thief gameplay.
SubJeff on 15/5/2009 at 15:04
That's the reason I'm all for a large set of tools, some of which favour stealth and others which favour other things like acrobatics and assassination. That way I get to play it the way I want (like T1/2, near ghosting, no killing) and others get to be a deadly shadow. Give Garrett a few tools suited to it (garrote, throwing knifes, boots of wall running) and he gets very close to a ninja and for many (not me!) this would be ideal.
This is the idea I've been trying to pimp for years (although I've modified and toned down some of that stuff. In my head anyway):
(
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1638935#post1638935)
Queue on 15/5/2009 at 15:06
Great ideas!
poroshin on 15/5/2009 at 15:34
Some good ideas there. I think they could marry Thief and some gameplay aspects of Assassin's Creed (freeform movement), and Splinter Cell (ability to grab people). As long as Thief-style is still possible (maybe with instituting the classic "Expert" difficulty level), that would allow people to play a more assassin-like style, making the game have broader appeal, since Assassin's Creed and Splinter Cell are both very popular and succesful franchises.
Twist on 15/5/2009 at 16:35
Thief fits an odd niche, and it is more than just a matter of stealth vs. action.
I had a kind of epiphany while trying to get a friend into playing Thief. I thought he'd love it if he gave it a chance as he loves RPGs and adventure games but not action games, and he's an avid fan of noir film and fantasy fiction.
But as he played through several missions, he expressed how there was one thing about Thief that made it feel more like playing a first-person shooter rather than an RPG: Very little "adrenaline downtime".
When you play most adventure games and RPG games, you tend to have extended periods of time when you can kind of be detached and relaxed. Maybe you're traveling across the countryside to the next quest or encounter. Maybe you're peacefully meandering about a town buying and selling equipment.
My friend loves these kinds of periods of peace offered by RPGs and adventure games.
Oddly, from a tension and adrenaline standpoint, Thief is more like action shooters in that the flow of adrenaline and sense of danger is more constant and engaged.
This makes Thief an odd bird. Clearly from reading these forums, many Thief fans deride the notion of appealing to action gamers. But at the same time, Thief's brand of almost-constant tension and adrenaline (albeit served in a very different way) can also make it unappealing to other gamers who also dislike action games.
I don't have a solution or suggestion here. I'm just commenting on the fact that the issue is more difficult than just stealth vs. violence/action.
If I were looking at the success of the previous games, I guess I would look at what demographic details distinguish Thief from other franchises. A couple of demographics that I see in the Thief community more than many other gaming communities are older gamers and women.
Again, I'm not sure what I'd do to better capture those gamers, but I'd rather another Thief game go after them than go after adolescent action gamers. *shrug*
jtr7 on 15/5/2009 at 17:09
Interesting. I've never heard it put that way, as one of the things I love about Thief is all the non-action and periods of rest. Stand in a shadow and don't worry about a thing until it's time to move.
Twist on 15/5/2009 at 17:19
But when you're deep in a tomb or high in a manor, you have the tension of getting caught. Sure if you find a quiet dark spot you can take a breather, but this isn't the same as performing several significant tasks in the game without any risk whatsoever.
Either you're resting and waiting to take action, or you're engaged in the adrenaline-inducing action of observing a patrol route and taking a deep breath to make a break for the next safe patch of shadow.
It isn't the same as spending several hours of real game time performing tangible tasks while walking from shop to shop to sell your spoils of battle and rearrange your inventory with the new equipment you bought.
jtr7 on 15/5/2009 at 17:41
Not for some players. :p
I'm teasin', I know what you're saying, but on a tangent, exploring the terrain thoroughly and checking every inch even just in hopes of finding a surprise and not just loot, is very relaxing and many hours can be spent not really worried. Once the patrol routes are understood upon observation, and the terrain understood, the adrenaline is only what one brings to it. Progressing through the map from goal to goal is where the real tension comes in, but many side excursions offer a respite. All subjective, really, and why Thief is unparalleled in granting one his/her own organic subjective experience.
Twist on 15/5/2009 at 18:05
I completely agree, but my comments in this discussion are in the context of, call me crazy, "Will Thief 4 Be Successful?" Which I assumed meant some kind of discussion revolving around drawing new players unfamiliar with the franchise.
I'm not talking about how I, personally, play or perceive the game. I'm talking about how someone unfamiliar with the franchise would play it long enough to get hooked.
SubJeff on 15/5/2009 at 18:12
Twist - I think the "downtime" in Thief is in the cutscenes and the shop. It is certainly very engaging and stimulating throughout the whole of a level because of the danger of being caught. Oddly this is one thing that TDS got right by dint of having inter-mission returns to your pad - it was relatively safe there at first.
