jtr7 on 15/5/2009 at 18:22
Hey hey hey, no sarcasm needed, Twist. How 'bout humor? It's too dang tense around here for no dang reason.:D
I agree with most of what you've been saying. You talked twice, here, about a perspective I never heard described--not the tension so much, but the action and relentlessness, and in the context of new players. It's the subjectivity of the player that brings this element, Thief isn't forcing it except in a few missions, so I don't know how this (rare in my experience on these boards) is something a new game should move away from, when Thief is a game which lets each player bring a lot of themselves to it--for better or worse, as it should.
I do believe Bafford's did a bang up job of hooking people, and so did Unwanted Guest.
Twist on 15/5/2009 at 18:58
Er, if there was sarcasm in my post it wasn't meant in a negative way. I was just being playful. I probably should've added a :thumb: or something. :joke: A lot can be misconstrued in here without being able to hear the tone of one's voice.
And I think we're agreeing here on everything more than you/we realize. For example...
I'm not in anyway implying that Thief should move away from being a certain way or even change in any way for any purpose. As I said:
Quote:
I don't have a solution or suggestion here. I'm just commenting on the fact that the issue is more difficult than just stealth vs. violence/action.
and
Quote:
Again, I'm not sure what I'd do to better capture those gamers
As the discussion was about (or at least I honestly thought it was about), how Thief might draw in some
new players, I was simply pointing out that it wasn't as easy as making the game appeal to gamers who want a little more action in the form of acrobatics or the discussed assassin angle.
I was simply pointing out how unique Thief is and how this does make it fulfill a pretty narrow niche. I love it for being this way, but there are entire demographics of gamers -- even intelligent, non-action-oriented PC gamers -- who might not find the Thief paradigm appealing.
Just to be clear for anyone else: I'm not talking about how I personally perceive or play Thief and I'm not in any way saying that I personally want Thief to appeal to more gamers.
jtr7 on 15/5/2009 at 19:16
Yay! Thanks for correcting me, and nicely, too!:thumb:
This caught me:
"...this discussion are in the context of, call me crazy, "Will Thief 4 Be Successful?" Which I assumed..." :cheeky:
Moving right along. I'm enjoying your insightful and pretty on-the-money posts all around, so don't let either of us sabotage that!
I actually thought the subject title was asking a question with an impossible answer, and I know it will not be commercial if it's faithful. Compromised to be what we have been shouting against for ten years (8 myself) it will do much better. I wish the industry had encouraged players to be smarter and take joy in other ways to ruin their virtual enemies all this time, so Thiaf could be Thief on modern systems.
sNeaksieGarrett on 15/5/2009 at 20:13
Quite interesting posts guys.:) Yeah, I take the same stance as Twist on what the question is meant to imply (or what I perceive it to imply rather): that EM is trying to capture those new players who never played thief before, and therefore, will they be able to pull it off and sell the game well?
The answer to me is, yes thief 4 will be successful, IF they are able to make the game in a way that appeals to us, as well as new people. If it fails on the new people account, it may fail as a commercial release. Sad to say it, but I have to say that I also see that in the mainstream of gaming, most people play games because of the action, not because of the stealth mechanic. Think of it this way: If thief was really actually popular mainstream, then there would be lots more games that mimic it. As it stands, most games are too actiony with stealth in mind. Am I right? Or is this not a valid perspective?
Tannar on 16/5/2009 at 05:47
This is turning into a nice discussion and I am enjoying it. :thumb:
Twist, that was a nicely stated observation and I admit that I had never looked at it from that perspective but I think you are quite right. We Thief veterans know how to relieve that tension when we need to ingame but players new to the game might not. I remember my first time playing TDP and the incredible tension I felt all through Bafford's, let alone the later more harrowing missions. And you may be right that this will not appeal to a certain type of rpg player. I can't help but wonder, though, what percentage of the new, potential players would be made up by these types of rpg players.
And sNeaksieGarrett makes a good point that most players are looking for action and tension and that adrenaline rush in some form or another and even though Thief delivers it in a completely different way, that tension may appeal to the majority of potential new players. Just thinking out loud here.
Petike the Taffer on 16/5/2009 at 19:21
It needs a well-thought out concept (along with enough time to think it over) and reasonably balanced difficulty and options customization. Also, EM should be careful and not try to force themselves into making a lame Assasin's Creed or Splinter Cell knock-off. Stealth games are still a narrower game niche, and to top it off, Thief always belonged to the even more hard-core and narrow niche within the genre itself.
They just really need to work and test the whole thing carefully. There's nothing more annoying than a game, that showed promise, but fell on it's face due to a buggy release.
Bulgarian_Taffer on 16/5/2009 at 19:25
I believe Thief 4 will be successful. Of course they can make Garrett move faster so people won't feel bored, but if they keep to the medieval feeling, if they add rope arrows, swimmable water, if the city architecture is good, if we have the same factions... everything will be okay.
MaxDZ8 on 17/5/2009 at 09:42
Quote Posted by poroshin
Will Will Thief 4 be successful?
I hope it will, but not a smash hit. I suppose the Thi4f idea right now is temporary solution because if it is an indicator of the budget at their disposal, then I fear it's going to be troubled.
I hope it's not going to be a smash hit. If it does, you can be sure the marketing gurus will turn it in Just-Another-Proprietary-IP-with-yearly-iterations.
Quote Posted by Yandros
Well let me be the first to say that, more than likely, if it sells well, it will disappoint us hardcore fans. And I don't mean we'll disappointed that it sold well, I mean we'll disappointed by what they had to do to the game to make it sell well.
I Agree. As I (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126589&page=2) sort of hinted , if they could start it as a niche project, it would probably make me happier.
My model is Lotus Cars, which actually are not so big but still happens to make enjoyable niche products, staying afloat and still gets in business with next-gen automotive technology. Some of my friends didn't even knew Lotus still existed, yet they don't seem to be going out of business any time soon. So, niche products can actually sustain an industry (the question is if Thi4f can be the product).
Quote Posted by poroshin
So do you guys really believe that pure stealth equals being doomed commercially?
I don't think pure stealth equals doom, but the expectations for nowaday's pure stealth are high.
Quote Posted by Twist
I'm not talking about how I, personally, play or perceive the game. I'm talking about how someone unfamiliar with the franchise would play it long enough to get hooked.
Maybe they'll love the puzzles? I always considered Thief (thanks to its openness) sort of
The Incredible Machine with people in an interesting environment. Do you agree? As read on another post today, do you feel more the exploration, the problem(path)-solving, the pickpocketing or what?
Quote Posted by sNeaksieGarrett
Think of it this way: If thief was
really actually popular mainstream, then there would be lots more games that mimic it. As it stands, most games are too actiony with stealth in mind. Am I right? Or is this not a valid perspective?
Sounds very reasonable to me. But maybe the times are changed. Hardcore gamers nowadays are a minority. There's a plethora of 'casual' gamers buying only a few games and piling up tons of money by their numbers. In between there's somebody (admittedly like me) that doesn't count any hardcore anymore but still doesn't feel quite right in casual.
The mix which didn't worked up to now, may eventually become viable. It's like music in some sense, which evolves over time and eventually goes back to rediscover itself.
Albert on 17/5/2009 at 09:46
We'll just have to see now... won't we? ;)
