Bulgarian_Taffer on 24/5/2009 at 13:58
Quote Posted by Dia
TDS, while it did have its good points, didn't really bring Garrett to life the way TDP & TMA did. And I know I'm not alone in that sentiment. TDS was nowhere near as immersive and compelling as the first two games.
IMO TDS was more impressive than Thief 2. For example - Robots. I really didn't see how they fit into the Thief 2 universe. But Thief - DS is
medieval. It's
dark, unlike Thief 2. If I have to make a list about which game I enjoyed most, it will be:
1. Thief 1
2. Thief - DS
3. Thief 2.
242 on 24/5/2009 at 14:51
Quote Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer
TDS was more impressive than Thief 2.
Put him to fire and hammer.
Dia on 24/5/2009 at 16:18
Quote Posted by Ostriig
However, I think you may be focusing too much on that statement at the expense of the rest of my post. What I'm getting at is that, while intertwined, you can draw a clear distinction between the way a game plays and the elements of its narrative, and that clearly stating no interest whatsoever in a game that plays exactly like Thief
Takeyourpick, with the same setting, but just a different protagonist, suggests an exclusive interest in Thief,
the character (i.e. Garret), rather than Thief, the game.
I understood the point you were trying to make the first time; and I disagree. What I'm trying to tell you is that the character Garrett
IS the Thief about whom all 3 of the Thief games revolve. And I wasn't criticizing the gameplay (so much :p ) of TDS as the fact that it didn't, in the opinion of many besides myself, really bring Garrett 'to life' the way TDP & TMA did.
Gameplay aside,
Thief is all about Garrett the Master Thief, and to create a game with the same name but without the main character imo would not be a true Thief game. Would I try such a game? Yes, I probably would; but I wouldn't be able to deny my initial disappointment that Garrett had been replaced by a Master Thief-wannabe by EM and unfortunately that would play a big part in my overall critique of said game. I strongly doubt that I would buy it. Would I play a game, as you suggested, called Burglar wherein everything was very similar to TDP & TMA? Of course I'd play it; at least
that game would be honest in its premise that here is a game very much like the original Thief games, but without the main character, without the continuing 'Garrett storyline', and with a few other changes.
To create a game called Thief without Garrett who
is the Thief as the main character to me is the equivalent of a lie. I don't know if I'm expressing myself clearly, but what I've been trying to convey is that bottom line,
Garrett is the Thief in the Thief games. His saga is what the Thief games were all about. Remember that this is just my humble opinion and I fully realize there are Thief fans who feel that Garrett's story has been told & who wouldn't mind seeing a new protagonist instead of Garrett's character. To each their own.
Example: Making a movie called Spiderman (with great special effects,mind you), but having the story revolve around a character who
is not Spiderman, but who wants to be a Spiderman-like superhero. Misleading to say the least, and I doubt that hardcore Spiderman fans would appreciate a movie like that because it just isn't
about Spiderman.
Ostriig on 24/5/2009 at 16:55
Quote Posted by Dia
Gameplay aside,
Thief is all about Garrett the Master Thief, and to create a game with the same name but without the main character imo would not be a true Thief game. Would I try such a game? Yes, I probably would; but I wouldn't be able to deny my initial disappointment that Garrett had been replaced by a Master Thief-wannabe by EM and unfortunately that would play a big part in my overall critique of said game. I strongly doubt that I would buy it. Would I play a game, as you suggested, called Burglar wherein everything was very similar to TDP & TMA? Of course I'd play it; at least
that game would be honest in its premise that here is a game very much like the original Thief games, but without the main character, without the continuing 'Garrett storyline', and with a few other changes.
To create a game called Thief without Garrett who
is the Thief as the main character to me is the equivalent of a lie.
Let me concentrate on this part, as I think it captures the essence of the matter - even though you'd be tempted by a game that plays like Thief, but without the protagonist, you'd only buy it if it owned up to itself and didn't call itself "Thief". So, really, it's an emotional response to what is perceived as the possibility of the devs trying to capitalize on the Thief name, but while not being interested in continuing the story of a beloved protagonist. A response to what is perceived as unfair, cheating even. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing or denying your right to this emotional attachment, as I have plenty of them myself, but I'm trying to explain the reasoning behind my calling this reaction "extreme".
And I do understand what you're getting at with the movie example, but, in support of my stance, I don't think it's an entirely accurate comparison. Movies have nothing more to offer than narrative (plot, characters, etc.), technical consideration aside, while games have an, in my opinion, equally important component in the form of gameplay.
Lady Rowena on 24/5/2009 at 22:04
Yes, I would be really sad and disappointed, as Garrett/Stephen Russel obviously is Thief, but I think that I would play it anyway.
I can only hope that it will be a solid character like others said, not a fricking teen ager. :p
The Magpie on 24/5/2009 at 22:31
I'd like to support Ostriig here.
I think a lot of the cheesiness in popular culture could have been avoided if holders of successful brands didn't think said brands were all about exploiting popular
characters to the point of ridiculousness.
Case in point: The Indiana Jones brand doesn't exactly make for good, believable, well thought out stories for grown-ups when the character has supposedly been in personal contact with every goddamn famous ancient artifact in the world (games, comics, novels) and personally met half the movers and shakers of the early 20th century (Young Indiana Jones Chronicles)?
I've seen it happen so many times, but I still groan every time I witness it being done
with an expectation of being taken seriously. Personally, I relate this tendency to the peculiar American obsession with (super)heroes, but it is also clear that well-defined, recognisable characters are easier for an audience to relate to, and therefore to market. (Dia's Spider-Man movie example is similarly flawed.)
Of course Thief without Garrett could perfectly well still be Thief, and even appear the fresher for it. Just like GTA switches (
http://gta.wikia.com/wiki/Protagonist) protagonists between each title, but the GTA brand is among the most successful in the world. Sure. It can be done, and not even be a drawback to marketing.
Dia's stance, that Garrett
is the Thief in the Thief series, and Thief games are about Garrett's saga is valid as an opinion, but faulty as an argument. Try this: Garrett has been the
first Thief in the Thief series, and the first Thief games have been revolving around Garrett.
As an afterthought, I'd like people who voted "no" to a Garrett-less Thief 4 to consider whether they wish for the Thief franchise to go on and be successful with Thief 4 and beyond. Yes? Is it equally desirable for Thief
8 to be another contrived story still about Garrett? No? Then kindly STFU.
Not that this vote matters, since the EM concept has already been greenlighted by Eidos. And if it doesn't involve playing Garrett throughout the game, then I haven't been thinking highly enough of Stéphane D'Astous and his crew.
But Ostriig, you really should play TMA
and TG. Sooner rather than later. ;)
--
Larris
Ostriig on 24/5/2009 at 23:21
Quote Posted by The Magpie
But Ostriig, you really should play TMA
and TG. Sooner rather than later. ;)
TMA is a definite on my to-do list, I'm hoping for this summer. I guess that whether I go on from there to TDP/Gold will depend on my experience through TMA, but I'm very open to it, even more so since I think I'll get one of those T1+T2 packs I saw on Amazon. :)
Dia on 25/5/2009 at 02:41
Quote Posted by Ostriig
even though you'd be tempted by a game that plays like Thief, but without the protagonist, you'd only buy it if it owned up to itself and didn't call itself "Thief". So, really, it's an emotional response to what is perceived as the possibility of the devs trying to capitalize on the Thief name, but while not being interested in continuing the story of a beloved protagonist. A response to what is perceived as unfair, cheating even. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing or denying your right to this emotional attachment, as I have plenty of them myself, but I'm trying to explain the reasoning behind my calling this reaction "extreme".
Maybe you perceive my response as extreme and emotional, as I said before everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I happen to believe that there is still a lot of potential in continuing Garrett's saga; and I still don't think you're understanding what I've been trying to tell you. Maybe I didn't present my opinion clearly enough. But nevermind; we've beat this thing into the ground and neither of us is likely to agree with the other. Just go play TDP & TMA and then maybe you'll understand.
Btw;
Quote:
'even though you'd be tempted by a game that plays like Thief, but without the protagonist, you'd only buy it if it owned up to itself and didn't call itself "Thief"' I never said I'd buy a game like that, just that I would probably play it. I've played a few games that had Thief-like attributes, but I wasn't deluded into thinking they were literal knock-offs of the original Thief series. (I have a friend who buys any and every game that she considers even remotely Thief-like, so I'd just borrow it from her. :p ) I know there are a lot of Thief fans who are always looking for games that have similar gameplay, graphics, sound, etc. to Thief (in fact I believe there is currently a thread on that topic), so I don't think it's hypocritical that I may want to play a game called 'Burglar'.
Quote Posted by The Magpie
As an afterthought, I'd like people who voted "no" to a Garrett-less Thief 4 to consider whether they wish for the Thief franchise to go on and be successful with Thief 4 and beyond. Yes? Is it equally desirable for Thief
8 to be another contrived story still about Garrett? No? Then kindly STFU.
We haven't even made it to T4 yet & you're worried about T8? :laff: As someone has already posted, T4 may yet be cancelled somewhere down the road. It's not like it hasn't happened before to other games in a series.
Morte on 25/5/2009 at 07:17
Quote Posted by Ostriig
But as the poll itself stands, some of you are saying that you wouldn't buy Thief 4, even if it hypothetically played just like your favourite Thief game (mechanics, goals, level structuring, etc.), simply because there's no Garret. It seems... extreme.
You on the internet. In a fan forum. You can't honestly be surprised over a puritanical streak a mile wide, can you? ;)
Quote Posted by Dia
We haven't even made it to T4 yet & you're worried about T8? :laff: As someone has already posted, T4 may yet be cancelled somewhere down the road. It's not like it hasn't happened before to other games in a series.
The Magpie is making a point (with which I agree entirely) about stretching out things beyond what the material can bear. There's only so much you can put a character through before things become silly. The first three games form a fairly neat trilogy with a beginning, middle and end, and a definite arc for the main character. I'd much rather they didn't mess with that than create some contrived reason for Garrett to revert to his old ways.
Ostriig on 25/5/2009 at 12:36
Quote Posted by Dia
Just go play TDP & TMA and then maybe you'll understand.
There's no call to brush me off like that, I like to think I've been both eloquent and polite in presenting my arguments. And as for the "buy" and "play" point - first, the distinction is artificial in this context, since I'm only after the existence of interest; and second, I didn't say it's hypocritical, I simply stated that emotional response is part of the decision. But, as you said, there's probably little more to come from the discussion.
Quote Posted by Morte
You on the internet. In a fan forum. You can't honestly be surprised over a puritanical streak a mile wide, can you? ;)
A board of TTLG, nonetheless, and I was curious about the actual reasons behind said reactions. No harm intended.
