Keeper_Andrus on 19/9/2008 at 04:54
Not to continue getting ourselves off-topic, but...
I loved bioshock when I first played it. Now, I really don't mean to blame you all, cause I've jumped on the bandwagon a bit, but I when I think about it, I totally agree with that article. But when I play bioshock now, it's not nearly as fun. I dunno.
Also, so atlas looked like the cover of atlas shrugged at the end of the game. Cool. The boss fight was still god-awful.
So, the witcher...
Malf on 19/9/2008 at 05:58
Yeah, I'd read that before a while back, and while his defence of the game's themes and story is admirable, his very few attempts to address actual gameplay issues are lacklustre.
I think the most interesting thing about the article is the fact that he felt it needed to be written in the first place. Kieron's got a hard-on for Looking Glass legacy games, and I think it very much clouds his judgment.
Aja on 19/9/2008 at 06:10
At the same time though, I think it clouds the judgements of detractors.
Because Bioshock is, by almost all accounts, a very good game. It's just not what SS2 fans were expecting. And Gillen does have something of a point: must players be forced into experimentation? Some people might've played through with only a wrench, but the only reason I can see for doing that is to brag about it in disgust later on in the forums. Even Gillen admits it isn't ideal, but for those of us who played the game as if the chambers didn't exist, they actually ended up being a kind of nice way of preventing redoing the same things over and over. A flawed system, for sure, but definitely blown out of proportion by the detractors. And therein lies the need for the article: people were letting their preconceptions shape their opinions before they had a chance to evaluate the game on its own merits. Bioshock, by any other name, would have almost certainly garnered greater praise from the hardcore crowd (or at least not been subject to such hatred).
Seems to me if Gillen's problem is that he's a LGS apologist, then he should've taken the opposite viewpoint?
mothra on 19/9/2008 at 09:36
only problem I had with bioshock was that it got more and more stupid at the end and that I never, NEVER got the motivation to finish my 2nd runthrough.
that is the performance of an average-good game to me, not a very good one.
Heck, everybody knows my problems with HL2 but I played that more often.
all of those options you got amounted to nothing. nothing had any impact on the world. the world did not have any impact on you (e.g. your "fake" big daddy transformation). the AI was utterly stupid with the exception of the BD/LS interactions. it's like there's a tactical, thought out, dangerous and creepy world beneath Bioshock but somebody came along and said: "but we need to make it louder, bigger, better!!!!" so now you got a game caring only about loudness instead of dynamic range (to continue the music comparison).
heretic on 19/9/2008 at 19:02
Anyhow, for those who didn't know yet: (
http://www.thewitcher.com/community/en/www/installation_of_twee_in_four_easy_steps.html) Enhancements are up-
You will want to use a manager as the downloads keep dropping off. Took me a few hours to snag everything. I used fileplanet because the officials are getting hammered so hard. Fileshack is up too.
Haven't tried anything out yet, but the install went smooth.
ChickenMcOwnage on 19/9/2008 at 21:03
Ugh why don't they have a torrent for this? Anybody have any links to the download that actually work?
mothra on 19/9/2008 at 21:50
there are already torrents up on the known sites (legal copies), and mirrors in germany (4players.de) and the usa (fileshack). I just installed and will launch in a few seconds. only got the patch + english lang. for now, will get the polish lang. + 2 new adventures later :)
btw, you got to be registered on their forum so they check your username/pw on install but that's it.
no other activations on soundtrack, manuals, making of which can be downloaded already from other sites as well.
mgeorge on 19/9/2008 at 23:04
I picked up the retail version on Tues and fairly impressed. The load times are better and although I don't think the animations make much of a difference it's a very good deal for the money. I personally haven't noticed the 5000 lines of new dialog, but only played the demo so not sure about that. I only wish they had added the game manual in the deal. Not sure why they didn't, as they included everything but the kitchen sink in the package.
Still though, I give CDProjekt credit for giving it's fans an enhanced version without the enhanced price and even including a free download of the extra goodies to people who have already purchased the game. Not often you see that.
As to Bioshock, although not perfect, I still found it a very good game, and most certainly better than most around here give it credit for. And I believe Aja is right. If anyone else had made the game, it would have been a game talked about on this forum as being a diamond in the rough.
Tonamel on 20/9/2008 at 01:58
Quote Posted by mgeorge
I only wish they had added the game manual in the deal. Not sure why they didn't, as they included everything but the kitchen sink in the package.
It's on the disk. I'm not sure why they didn't include a physical copy, but at least you have a digital one.
And I'm pretty sure most of the 5000 new lines of dialog are replacements for the old lines of dialog.
Angel Dust on 20/9/2008 at 05:51
Quote Posted by mothra
only problem I had with bioshock was that it got more and more stupid at the end and that I never, NEVER got the motivation to finish my 2nd runthrough.
that is the performance of an average-good game to me, not a very good one.
Heck, everybody knows my problems with HL2 but I played that more often.
all of those options you got amounted to nothing. nothing had any impact on the world. the world did not have any impact on you (e.g. your "fake" big daddy transformation). the AI was utterly stupid with the exception of the BD/LS interactions. it's like there's a tactical, thought out, dangerous and creepy world beneath Bioshock but somebody came along and said: "but we need to make it louder, bigger, better!!!!" so now you got a game caring only about loudness instead of dynamic range (to continue the music comparison).
I agree, the main problem with Bioshock for me is that it was simply too damn 'loud' in all areas. The one that hurt it the most was the characterisation, it was far too over the top. I didn't believe a single character in the whole thing. I thought the gameplay had some problems but nothing that would have bothered me if was presented in a less obvious way. I play games mainly for the story and atmosphere which Bioshock lost for me when it decided to play everything on a such a histrionic level.
And Aja when are you going to get over the fact that many people didn't like Bioshock for very good reasons? That article of Keiron's simply cherry picks the easiest, most ridiculous complaints to debunk. Sure you get some idiots who continuously bring up the whole 'wrench' argument but alot of people, from what I've read here and on other forums since being disappointed in Bioshock is certainly not unique to TTLG, found the game far too easy and repetitive for completely different reasons than those Keiron chose to attack.
Personally I experimented alot during my first playthrough and enjoyed it for a while, as I'm sure many did, but since the game gives you almost the entire toolset quite early and had almost no variation of pacing to speak of I ended up getting quite bored. Since the story wasn't gripping me for the reasons stated in my first paragraph (and regarding the third act, no amount of over reaching 'meta-analysis' is going to make that section anything more than the complete rush job that Levine and co have pretty much admitted it was) I was left with unsatisfied by the whole experience, a feeling that only deepened when I attempted a second playthough. I didn't intend to dislike Bioshock and I don't think it's a bad game at all but it is certainly not one I wish to play and I would like to think my reasons are valid and not backlash.
On topic I am hopefully going to being picking this up in the next few weeks. Getting time to play it may take a bit longer!
