Words do not suffice.... - by CCCToad
june gloom on 9/9/2009 at 21:40
I love how people have been so exposed to Koki's bullshit that they haven't figured out he was being sarcastic with the Halo remark.
Zygoptera on 9/9/2009 at 21:55
ah dethtoll, I can read about BatmanAA and Thief being an RPG and the first thing in the thread which screams :facepalm: comes from you, totally unsolicited.
:applause:
<small>[I'm being sarcastic. Or am I?]</small>
june gloom on 9/9/2009 at 22:13
Yeah but it took Zygoptera to really take a dump in this thread.
See I can be sarcastic too. Maybe.
june gloom on 10/9/2009 at 02:23
That thread hurt my brain.
SubJeff on 10/9/2009 at 03:45
Quote Posted by gunsmoke
Come on man, you are an intelligent guy, surely you want to retract that statement, take some time to re-evaluate your argument, and post and post something more inline with the rational thoughts you are more than capable of.
You need to think outside the box a bit to get this.
"RPGs" are so called because they are computer game versions of the tabletop RPGs like D&D and so on. But when you play a D&D game you really roleplay and its not
just about stats. Arguably computer RPGs only use the stats and only optionally include the roleplaying.
That aside you'll notice I said this: "To put it in context its not like a generic FPS because despite gun, location, weapon differences you are just running and gunning.
There is no unique role to play."
There is almost nothing about (most) FPSs that really involves roleplay. I'd say FP sim shooters like ARMA or even Red Orchestra involve an amount of RP because you have to get into the mind of a soldier and make real tactical decisions that you really don't have to get into in games like Halo or Far Cry. They require not much beyond "I'll use the big gun now" or "I'll take that guy over there out first as he has the big gun".
Thief gives you a unique set of tools and abilities that are those of a professional thief. You really have to get into the role and you end up thinking like Garrett would about approaching situations. Yes, you only have one class choice but its the level of immersion into the role of a thief that gives it its RP flavour.
This is not true of Mario or Pong or any other game that doesn't inexorably draw you into the character role.
That is why I can understand the take in that article. I've not played Batman, yet, but I totally get the idea that you end up thinking like Batman, that you end up
being the Batman.
Why does a game need to have stats to make it an RPG? Did you feel like you were
role playing every character in your party in Baldurs Gate? In Anachronox? In any of the Final Fantasies? Or are they just classed as RPGs because they have abilities with stats?
Don't get me wrong - I'm happy for the RPG label to be used on the genre because that is a language that we are all used to. But that doesn't mean that other genres cannot be RPGs and if they make me feel
in the role then wtf else are they? You can say something is an FPS but thats a description of part of the game mechanic.
Its all part of how immersed you get in a game. I'm extremely interested in how games tell stories and how they make you a part of that story. I suppose I look for the high art in gaming, the things that will eventually make the general public view games as just as relevant as films or books, just as able to tell a story, explore a theme and stir emotions. I dislike the way mainstream critics sniff at games as being for kids and not having much artistic merit. Thief, and a few other games (but not many), got me into that alternate role that made the game more interactive than the fact that I was controlling the character. I
was the character.
That was interaction.
If you didn't feel that you won't understand how I can say that Thief was an RPG.
And I feel bad for you, because the liberation of the experience was something I really, really
felt and it felt good. Its why I'm still a devotee to this day.
SubJeff on 10/9/2009 at 03:49
Quote Posted by Koki
Trolling? What the hell does this have to do with trolling? This is General Gaming, and I'm giving my opinions like everyone else. If I said that, for example, Deus Ex is shit game then I'd be trolling - because that's not my opinion at all and I'd be doing just to piss you off.
I asked : "
2. Do you actually wake up everyday and think 'How can I be more of a dick today than I've been in the past?'. "You replied: "
Second one? Recently, here, yes."
Emphasis on "here" added by me.
Now how have I misunderstood you admitting to waking up everyday and "recently" (last year at least) thinking "How can I be more of a dick today than I've been in the past?" on the TTLG forums?
That is
exactly what you have just said. If thats not trolling I don't know what is.
Dimwit.
gunsmoke on 10/9/2009 at 12:36
I am not arguing that I don't get where you are coming from. It is YOUR personal definition of RPG, just not one that I have heard anybody else ever use. Personally, the way you use it, to me, just means that it is an extremely immersive game.
I don't know how old you are, but I grew up in the '80s playing pen-and-paper RPGs. The term was simply carried over to video games that followed that formula.
SubJeff on 10/9/2009 at 13:10
I did too and that is why I have issue with the use of RPG in games that are just stats based character class games. That's not role, that's function. For it to be a role requires a bit more immersion. I can play 100 computer RPGs and just play it like me, do what I would do in that situation. Although you can never completely divorce yourself from that you can play a role.
Its not impossible with current RPGs but how many people do it? I try to play character types in RPGs (e.g. Morrowind) that are not me, not what I would be. I don't need to try in Thief because not only do I not get a character class choice but I am led into the character, the role of the Thief.
And I've heard other people describe Thief as a single class RPG.
Thirith on 10/9/2009 at 13:12
The "RPG as a genre" vs. "literal interpretation of role-playing" discussion is one that rears its ugly head from time to time, and it's always a :facepalm: of a discussion. To my mind, the latter position always ignores that when we talk about RPGs, we're talking about a genre that has developed from tabletop RPGs. Yes, there isn't much role-playing in the literal sense in Diablo or Icewind Dale, but you can see in what ways these games have descended from their ancestor games. Once you get overly literal about what role-playing in computer games is supposed to be, you end up with a vague, woolly term that has little practical use, because some people may feel they're *really* playing the role of Master Chief or Lara Croft or whoever else. The thinking behind a literal interpretation of RPG may be valid, but it's pretty useless in practice if we're talking about genres and the resulting discussion descends into one of the most masturbatory semantics debates.
Edit: If the discussion was reframed as "which games allow you to really get into a role?" or similar and was clearly differentiated from the genre discussion, it may lead to interesting places IMO.
