SubJeff on 23/9/2013 at 11:30
I know we have a Syria thread. This is different.
In the past few days the news has been about nutters blowing stuff up in different parts of the world. It's all a bit crazy really and it makes one realise how lucky one is to a. live in relatively safe/stable country (yes, I know craziness goes on here - it does everywhere) and b. not have been caught up in any such craziness to a large degree.
Now this is going to seem controversial and maybe even prejudicial but it's just an observation. The three countries I've mentioned in the title have craziness going on in them that has one unifying factor - Muslim fundamentalists. I know that the problems in Syria didn't clearly start out as sectarian but they have become so. So what I'm wondering is - what is UP with that?
Gryzemuis on 23/9/2013 at 12:27
We had the same crap with Christianity. Christian churches as powerhouses in political play. For centuries wars in Europe were because of religion. Or were backed by religion. Or religion was used as an excuse.
Only in the first half of 20th century this changed. God is dead. And it feels like that in the fifties and sixties religion was finally kicked back where it belongs: into people's private homes and into their clubhouses. And not in public life.
Muslims haven't learned that yet. Somebody needs to kick Islam back out of public life. Like we've kicked Christianity before.
Slasher on 23/9/2013 at 12:33
Probably just ugly coincidence. Given the differences in those three situations, it seems unlikely there's a big coordinated effort going on here. Even taking the unifying factor into account, the factions involved probably have different short term strategic aims.
Or September could just be the universal Crazy Month. There's been more than one man-made tragedy in the news lately.
SubJeff on 23/9/2013 at 13:29
Oh, I'm sure that the groups involved are not connected in any serious way - I'm not suggesting that there is a co-ordinated effort. But a lot of these guys share similar religious ideals that they are taking to the limit and in many ways that is worse. I just find it really, really enraging that so many people can be doing the same things for what is a twisted view of one religion. It's incredible.
demagogue on 23/9/2013 at 13:34
If we're trying to be analytic about it, I'd point out that it's not religious fundamentalism in a vacuum, but the kind that gets politicized. People can be very fundamentalist about their religious practice in peace, but it's when they start tying that fundamentalism to political aspirations that you get people wanting to go to extreme, other-worldly lengths to change a political situation, which is where the bombing & most irrational-seeming violence comes into play (otherworldly in the sense that their aspirations aren't grounded in reality, so the whole thing has a nihilistic or fatalistic edge; violence for eternity/nothing).
As for the observation that radical Islam seems to be getting more air time these days, I think there may be something to it but not a lame "Islam is violent" narrative, which falls apart under scrutiny anyway for all the reasons faetal has so eloquently given us before: there are so many groups with so many conflicting interests, it's absurd to credibly say "Islam is ___" anything. But there's probably some reasons converging for the violence we are seeing... The crumbling of the Arab Spring & frustration of fundamentalist groups getting marginalized seems like it would be a factor. Also, like any radical ideology, it's not like radical Islam is coming out of nowhere just now... There are lines stretching back decades for all of these groups.
I've read that there's a lot of soul searching & discussions in Arab & Muslim forums, not only the online variety, about the role of Islam in world events & how different strands of Islam are evolving in different ways, especially after all the drama in the Middle East over the last decade... like Judaism did a lot of soul searching after the Holocaust, or Christianity after different crises. Places where those kinds of discussions are going on is where I think you'd find the most interesting background reading for knowing how to approach a topic like this.
I was just talking to an Egyptian-Japanese guy this last weekend here that grew up in Egypt, and his frustration was that most media slant the narrative as if the problems in Egypt were all army vs. Muslim Brotherhood, when he said in truth maybe 2 million people support the army, maybe 1.5 million support the MB, but then you have 77 million other people in the country that are neither particularly pro-army nor pro-MB that should be at the center of discussion when you're talking about Egypt, and getting too obsessed with the army or MB makes you overly near-sighted so that the true dynamics, or the true needs for most people in the country go out of focus. And similar things could probably be said for other countries.
I'm just afraid for a lot of us barging into a discussion with just a few half-baked ideas wouldn't be giving justice to the discussion. But we have some members from Islamic countries or otherwise connected to that world that might usefully give us some input.
Neb on 23/9/2013 at 13:41
Quote Posted by NuEffect
Now this is going to seem controversial and maybe even prejudicial but it's just an observation. The three countries I've mentioned in the title have craziness going on in them that has one unifying factor - Muslim fundamentalists.
They also have the underlying factor of European colonialism. Mostly British.
SubJeff on 23/9/2013 at 16:21
True.
Are we saying that it's the vacuum left by colonisation that has allowed this to happen? In some ways I agree - as soon as you abandon a country people who might not be in it for the best have a good chance of taken over during the period of change.
dema - I don't think "Islam is violent", I just think an awful lot of nutjobs at the moment seem to be using it to influence people. It does have a an old world flavour to it. I think it would be hard to get a serious contingent of Western Christians to go on a Crusade these days, but that's probably more to do with education and poverty than religion...
Gryzemuis on 23/9/2013 at 16:45
Quote Posted by NuEffect
I think it would be hard to get a serious contingent of Western Christians to go on a Crusade these days
Isn't that exactly what happened to Afghanistan and Iraq just a decade ago ?
Queue on 23/9/2013 at 16:47
What about Kenyan Christians burning people as witches back 2007?
Warning--utterly horrifying video follows:
[video=youtube;Fq1EEgXS6e4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq1EEgXS6e4[/video]
Really what it boils down to is: Fundamental Muslims...Fundamental Christians...both have the same God, and both equally love causing human misery in his name.
