Renzatic on 23/9/2013 at 19:06
Quote Posted by LittleFlower
Isn't that exactly what happened to Afghanistan and Iraq just a decade ago ?
I don't think we jumped feet first into the fray solely because of the huge potential for positive missionary work, no.
LoLion on 23/9/2013 at 19:10
Quote Posted by Neb
They also have the underlying factor of European colonialism. Mostly British.
It is the British de-colonisation which is the biggest problem though. The French never de-colonised their African territories properly and kept control by more or less indirect means, organising coups, selecting new dictators or intervening against the rebels (like in Mali most recently). Thanks to that most of the “former” French colonies remained deeply undemocratic, often oppressive, but relatively stable.
On the other hand the Brits simply walked away and left the native populations to run their (artificially created and thus not very legitimate) countries on their own, which did not turn out very well.
The ongoing violence is more a symptom of the general state failure than anything else. Actually both Taliban and the Union of Islamic Courts (predecessor of Al-Shabab, which is behind the ongoing mall massacre in Nairobi) started off as “law and order” movements that promised to restore legality by imposing sharia instead of the secular systems that apparently failed in their respective countries.
Queue on 23/9/2013 at 19:41
I would have thought that the biggest problem is, people are inherently lunatics.
Or is that the underlying problem?
Slasher on 23/9/2013 at 20:33
Quote Posted by NuEffect
Oh, I'm sure that the groups involved are not connected in any serious way - I'm not suggesting that there is a co-ordinated effort. But a lot of these guys share similar religious ideals that they are taking to the limit and in many ways that is worse. I just find it really, really enraging that so many people can be doing the same things for what is a twisted view of one religion. It's incredible.
We should not decouple the political aspect from the problem. Focusing on just the religious element doesn't do the problem justice.
Take Kenya for example. I doubt some dickhead woke up one day and asked God how he could be the biggest asshole ever. Al-Shabab has suffered losses in both personnel and territory to the AU force, including the Kenyan contingent, over the past couple years. Their goal of creating a theocratic state in Somalia is hindered by this. They aren't stupid. They know that challenging Anisom head on, militarily, will likely result in more defeats. Defeats they eventually won't be able to recharge from.
Since they're unlikely to prevail militarily, they're choosing to push a different button to see if they can win. If they can undermine Kenyan support of Animsom through terrorist attacks such as the current one, they won't have to expend as many resources trying to beat back the AU in Somalia. Best case scenario for Al-Shabab, in this case, would be the removal of Kenyan forces from Somalia in their entirety. Religious hotheads may be the overarching theme in these situations, but people need to remember there is a cold rationale that guides their strategy.
faetal on 23/9/2013 at 21:14
I don't know, we have the US who have been invading, threatening and controlling, instigating coups in numerous countries to protect its financial and political interests and contains no small amount of uber-religious loons who see the rest of the world either as semi-existent or just places filled with foreigners which need placating. An entire population of people who legitimately feel that it's ok to call civilian casualties "collateral damage", because the bombing needed to be done etc... Not to mention that the US has averaged one mass shooting per year since 2009. So I don't just think the craziness has Islam in common, unless you're ring-fencing Islam first and deciding only to talk about violent craziness associated with it. I think that any culture of thinking that your nation / religion's cause is the right one and other people are at odds with it, is fertile ground for the easily led to chant for all kinds of horrific shit. I believe Germany's ultra-nationalism in the 1930s is a good example.
SubJeff on 23/9/2013 at 22:19
I suppose the difference is no one else really (I know there are exceptions) targets civilians in a "we will destroy your families"way.
Collateral damage is not giving a crap about bystander casualties but the bystanders aren't the target.
It may amount to similar but the mindset behind it is very very different.
faetal on 24/9/2013 at 00:29
I did have a long reply typed, but fuck it. I'm just about done with continually debating with people who think that the media portrays both sides of the coin equally.
All I can say is that your view of Islamic fundamentalism is very much a mirror of how the media portrays it. That's not a criticism - most people tend to just take the popular view as the correct one, just know that the only way the viewpoint works is if you dehumanise Islamic people to some extent. We're never shown these people having weddings, playing on the beach, going shopping, celebrating birthdays etc... just parading in the street, firing kalashnikovs into the air, burning US flags and looking generally maniacal. I challenge anyone to visit any of these countries and find this stuff happening as the norm.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure media in Arabic /muslim nations - probably cuts straight from news reports showing US/UK military blowing up yet another wedding and saying "oops, we thought they were militants" into images of Americans protesting against sharia law or the building of a mosque near ground zero or whatever, because let's face it, fuckheads are everywhere, and some even have white skin - but that doesn't mean that people on this side following the media portrayal is any better than its equivalent elsewhere. I have to put up with knowing that my tax money is used to kill innocent people. Not caring if you kill bystanders is just as bad as planning to kill bystanders, because they know it will happen and they do it anyway. Holding a hat in your hands and saying "unfortunate collateral damage" and thinking that differentiates it IN ANY MEANINGFUL just comes across as sociopathic.
Angel Dust on 24/9/2013 at 01:20
Quote Posted by faetal
All I can say is that your view of Islamic fundamentalism is very much a mirror of how the media portrays it. That's not a criticism - most people tend to just take the popular view as the correct one, just know that the only way the viewpoint works is if you dehumanise Islamic people to some extent. We're never shown these people having weddings, playing on the beach, going shopping, celebrating birthdays etc... just parading in the street, firing kalashnikovs into the air, burning US flags and looking generally maniacal.
For me, I've found cinema to be the perfect antidote to this dehumanisation. My first foray into Arab cinema was a real eye opener and really showed how blinkered my outlook was. It's not like I thought all Muslims were raving loonies or something but I was genuinely surprised at how much these people on the other side of the world were really not that different from me. They certainly face different challenges but the countries are not in the constant state of unrest and anarchy that the media often makes is seem they are. Of course, that's obvious when you think about it but the whole "parading in the street, firing kalashnikovs into the air, burning US flags and looking generally maniacal" is a very pervasive image and watching these films really made it clear to me how much I swallowed it.
It also doesn't hurt that a lot of the films are fantastic. Off topic, but I recently watched
Wadjda which manages the miraculous feat of creating a feel good tale within the, for women, downright dystopian world of Saudi Arabia, while still addressing those very problems. Full of things that make me Western sensibilities tut and frown but also full of life, humour and humanity.
SubJeff on 24/9/2013 at 02:55
Nope and nope.
I grew up with Muslims. If you think the media has influenced my view of Islam that much your very wrong. I think you have the wrong idea here faetal, very wrong.
I was just discussing these events with a Muslim friend of mine. The topic; how annoying he finds it that every time a bomb goes off in some civilian area it's Islamic terrorists, and how the media portray Islam.
He won't go to America anymore because despite working for the Home Office with high security clearance he gets loads of grief when he goes and has been detained for hours and hours in the past.
SubJeff on 24/9/2013 at 02:58
Quote Posted by Angel Dust
For me, I've found cinema to be the perfect antidote to this dehumanisation. My first foray into Arab cinema was a real eye opener and really showed how blinkered my outlook was. It's not like I thought all Muslims were raving loonies or something but I was genuinely surprised at how much these people on the other side of the world were really not that different from me.
The amazes me. How can you NOT think they'd be just the same as you?
I'm sorry, but I've never suffered from this type of delusional prejudice and I resent any suggestion that I have.
