Baalak on 14/11/2007 at 11:15
I, like many others before me it seems, am running a Thief-inspired role playing game for my friends. Where others who have discussed this topic before me have tried to bring up game-system concerns, I'm much more, one might say exclusively, interested in the world building aspects of this endeavor.
While many aspects of the Thief universe are commonly known, I'm seeking to understand the ways in which the world works, and this requires a great deal of speculation, reviewing evidence, and out and out creation of new ideas- something which is always much easier when you include multiple points of view. I come here, making my first post, in the hopes of sharing ideas with others and creating a cohesive mythos which both includes the creativity shown in the Thief games, and has room for expansion into something greater than Thief had ever intended to depict- a multiverse.
The main questions I'm seeking to answer are, in no particular order: Where did the world come from? What is the Builder, a true god or something else? How does magic work, and how is the magic of the Hammerites/Pagans/Hand/Keepers/Others different? What sorts of natural laws can be inferred from the games? What really happened to the Precursors? What is the world in which the City resides like? What is beyond the City and it's nearest neighbors?
I understand that much of this has already been discussed before, and the search function has proven useful to me over the past few days as I've read many threads about these subjects and more. However, I'd like to see these questions discussed in the context of crafting a whole which could exist outside the games.
[RIGHT]
[INDENT]- Baalak called Dreamer.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
Digital Nightfall on 14/11/2007 at 11:26
Ready for more information than you were probably expecting to have to deal with?
(
http://www.btinternet.com/~sneaksiethiefsie/)
(
http://omegacron.com/games/thief/library.htm)
Get your favorite reading drink ready and pull up a chair. I hope your printer is full of ink. There's enough in there to keep you busy for a while.
It is 75% (roughly) fan-fiction, but to do what you're wanting to do, that is exactly what you need. LGS/ION were intentionally vague on many things.
... Though expect many here to disagree with alot of what is decieded in these documents; including me. It's all just one interpretation.
Baalak on 14/11/2007 at 12:57
The first link, to sneaksie thiefsie's treatises, I have seen already. I haven't read the stories, admittedly, but I am seeking understanding over literature, so unless you'd recommend any of them for my purposes, I think they shall remain unread. The second link, however, I haven't seen, and looks rather promising. Thank you, Digital Nightfall. I will pour over this new resource today. I am very grateful.
In hopes of driving discussion, I will try to narrow things down and start one of the questions rolling. I have seen threads recently which go into the system of magic in the Thief universe. Constantine's ritual and the chart in the Book of Ash has been shown a few times, and what they describe has been argued in a few different threads, but I don't recall one specifically detailing the topic.
The system that I'm fond of involves the four traditional elements of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, as well as two additional ones, a living Positive Energy, and a decaying Negative Energy. I see the world as being made of a balance of each of these six elemental forces, as though the world itself were suspended in a field and surrounded by the sources of these elemental energies. The combined elements form the Natural Energy of the world, providing for not only life and death, but growth and renewal. The field, one could say Ether, in which they rest is a source of energy unto itself, but it is not elemental in nature, and is much more passive, traditionally, with the elemental energies moving through it much the same as we move through the atmosphere.
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Etherial[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
Cobra on 14/11/2007 at 15:13
I would leave things vague.
Half of the enjoyment in playing the thief games (at least the first time through) is working out what these factions are, their beliefs, ideas, and practise. Magic is generally a weird force throughout the games - we do have some magicy enemies that throw spells at you, but most of the time it seems a rather careful pursuit, with rituals and stuff like that. I don't think shoehorning elementalism, divine magic or anything else is a good way to go - partly because people might disagree with what magic is, but I think to give it such an easy explanation cheapens it a lot. The pagans seem to be big on pagany rituals (no, really?) The Hammerites seem to be much more devotional, and the keepers have their own set of skills and abilities which seem a bit magical. Just as long as you keep the tricks and cool stuff of each faction distinct from each other, I don't think there is any need for you to elaborate any more than that.
In fact, I'd apply that to all of the questions you asked - there are plenty of interpretations as to what the Precursors were (as an example) but I don't think you need to decide on your own interpretation - it should stay to keep the world mysterious, if nothing else. Also, finding out the fundamental truths of the world does remove some ambiguity - if you can categorically show that the Builder is a fiction, would you want to be on the deluded side?
Out of interest, what sort of system are you planning to run for this game?
</ramble>
Baalak on 14/11/2007 at 15:31
Cobra, from the point of view of the players, I agree with you. The world should be vague, mysterious, even somewhat frightening. The characters should be huddling close around a sputtering flame, surrounded by the dark uncertainty of the night and all it represents. However, as the Game Master, I need to know the answers to the questions they will surely come to ask, if only to make sure the world remains internally consistent. Little infuriates people more, I have found, than discovering the world does not work this time the same way it did last time, without a very good reason.
I want the answers not to give them whole cloth to the players, but so that their characters can find one thread at a time, and attempt to weave it into a tapestry of knowledge.
As I said in my first post, the game system is not what interests me and has nothing to do with why I came, but since you expressed interest, I will give a very brief overview. The game runs on a base of 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons, but with a modified grim and gritty hit point system, modified classes, a new magic system, a new experience point system... I call it d20 Fantasy, and not DnD. Since I have only 2 players, we aren't slowed down by using a slightly more complicated combat system, though it is certainly still recognizable as d20. If you would like me to go into further detail, I would be happy to reply in e-mail, but I do not want to bog this discussion down with system talk.
So, to sum myself up, I agree and disagree with you. The players will see the vague, but I need to know the answers to provide them with the caliber of game to which they are accustomed to.
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Weaver.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
Biohazard on 15/11/2007 at 07:45
I hope you are finding the information you need. Welcome to the forums!
We always welcome those that can spell, use punctuation, and write coherently. ;)
Solabusca on 15/11/2007 at 09:34
Quote Posted by Baalak
In hopes of driving discussion, I will try to narrow things down and start one of the questions rolling. I have seen threads recently which go into the system of magic in the Thief universe. Constantine's ritual and the chart in the Book of Ash has been shown a few times, and what they describe has been argued in a few different threads, but I don't recall one specifically detailing the topic.
The system that I'm fond of involves the four traditional elements of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, as well as two additional ones, a living Positive Energy, and a decaying Negative Energy. I see the world as being made of a balance of each of these six elemental forces, as though the world itself were suspended in a field and surrounded by the sources of these elemental energies. The combined elements form the Natural Energy of the world, providing for not only life and death, but growth and renewal. The field, one could say Ether, in which they rest is a source of energy unto itself, but it is not elemental in nature, and is much more passive, traditionally, with the elemental energies moving through it much the same as we move through the atmosphere.
That's very close to what I've posited in past, using both Constantine's ritual and the Book of Ash as resources.
.j.
Baalak on 15/11/2007 at 18:18
I hope it does sound similar, as you helped inspire it by bringing the ritual and second page of the Book of Ash to my attention. I never realized there was a second page until you showed it to me. Thank you for the illumination.
I disagree with the placement of the elements on the chart; at least, the four traditional elements. I tend to assume that Earth and Air are opposites, as are Fire and Water. I also align the four in a ring, with Life and Death residing above and below the ring, to form a sphere, with para-elementals residing in the locations where the elements touch. Then again, I can't claim to be uninspired by the Dungeons and Dragons cosmology.
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Illuminated.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
Peanuckle on 16/11/2007 at 04:28
Just remember that your fellow players cant flare elevate until they've reached level 15. :thumb:
<Username> on 16/11/2007 at 07:33
I'm working on a Treatise on Magic, compiled from posts on TTLG.com. I probably won't be able to finish it but if you're interested, Baalak, I can send you the file.
