Worldbuilding and Thief

Baalak on 16/11/2007 at 14:11

Quote Posted by Peanuckle

Just remember that your fellow players cant flare elevate until they've reached level 15. :thumb:

I think there are some aspects of cannon physics which can be ignored for the betterment of all. Thanks for the reminder.

Quote Posted by <Username>

I'm working on a Treatise on Magic, compiled from posts on TTLG.com. I probably won't be able to finish it but if you're interested, Baalak, I can send you the file.

I'd love to read what you've written, <Username>! Thank you. Might I ask, why don't you expect to finish it?

Magic aside, I'm wondering now what people have to say about the Master Builder and the Trickster. Both beings are referred to as deities, but one obviously has a physical form, and the other is much less corporeal. Does the Builder exist as the Order of the Hammer declares, or is it fictional, an the power of the priesthood comes from someplace else? Is the Trickster capable of granting powers like the Builder does, or does the magic of the Pagans come from another source? (If he grants the power himself, I find his invocation of the ritual very interesting.) Does the Trickster benefit from being worshipped as a god, and if not, why does he put up with humans following him, if they're the source of most of his misery?

[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Appreciative and Curious.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]

Peanuckle on 16/11/2007 at 19:17

Alot of my view on Thief deities actually comes from another game, TES4 Oblivion. In Oblivion, the gist of godhood is that all gods/goddesses started out as the dead spirits of mortals, who gained power through the worship of others.

By this reasoning, the Trickster probably is invoking the ritual so that more people will worship him, thereby increasing his power and restoring him as the dominant God. The Builder gets his power from the worship of the Hammerites. This idea sets the stage for a conflict over followers between the Trickster and the Builder, as the one with the most followers will be able to dominate the other.

<Username> on 17/11/2007 at 15:29

I like this approach. It it isn't canon but it makes for an interesting campaign. The characters in mine a part of a small order seeking to restore magic in the City. The more the people believe in magic and the supernatural, the more powerful it becomes.

Quote Posted by Balaak

I'd love to read what you've written, <Username>! Thank you. Might I ask, why don't you expect to finish it?

Lack of time mostly. Also, English isn't my first language.

<Username> on 19/11/2007 at 10:22

(http://www.megaupload.com/?d=61PL2FX6) Thief-RPG: Treatise on Magic (unfinished). An attempt to gather every post about magic on ttlg - among others by Solabusca, Snakeskin and jtr-7.

Solabusca on 19/11/2007 at 14:29

Quote Posted by <Username>

(http://www.megaupload.com/?d=61PL2FX6) Thief-RPG: Treatise on Magic (unfinished). An attempt to gather every post about magic on ttlg - among others by Solabusca, Snakeskin and jtr-7.

Hey, <Username> -

I'll take a look at the documentation a little bit later on today, but if I could make a recommendation - using either (http://docs.google.com) Google Docs or (http://mediafire.com) Mediafire is a bit more 'user-friendly' for downloading than using megaupload.

.j.

[EDIT: Wow - you weren't kidding when you said you were gathering the posts - I saw a lot of stuff I'd written!!]

Baalak on 19/11/2007 at 17:56

<Username>, your treatise looks awesome. I'm still reading the first section, and it may take me a while to finish it because I'm in the process of writing the next adventure my hapless players will be going on, but it looks like you did a lot of the gathering work I'd need to do on the forums for me. Thank you so much! I appreciate the .rtf format, too.

Your game uses belief-based magic, then, <Username>? Reminiscent of White Wolf's Mage series (if you're familiar with it)? Personally, it seems to me that the Aether exists whether or not people believe anything, but their belief may help to shape it, sort of like stroking an oar through a lake produces eddies in the water. I think that your idea and Peanuckle's are complimentary, if belief in magic can have an effect upon it then belief in a deity may have an effect upon it, too. I wouldn't go as far as The Elder Scrolls mythos goes, allowing a mortal soul to ascend to godhood if enough people believe in its divinity, and a god being forgotten and becoming little more than a wisp of its former self, but maybe I should. It could work well in the gameworld.

An interesting point; The Trickster has a physical form, so I suspect that even if no one worshipped him, he would exist physically, albiet in a weakened state. This does, however, permit his body to be slain. The Builder, on the other hand, seems to be far less corporeal, and may rely upon the belief of its followers to maintain its divine status. Can't be killed physically, but spiritual death is possible if it is forgotten.

Then again, even if all the Pagans died, the Order of the Hammer would keep the Trickster's belief alive, if only as their devil-figure. Wouldn't they be surprised!

So, assuming that belief does shape magic to a degree, and that there are beings which can feed off this energy to become stronger, I would still suggest that an individual's belief is a paltry force compared to the aetherical mass of magic, and one person could no more shape it by his simple belief than one could extinguish a bonfire by blowing on it. The belief doesn't make the magic possible, it instead allows it to be shaped through learned and practiced processes. An Elementalist must spend years learning to manipulate the Aether before he can wield the magic of his peers, but a priest of the Order of the Hammer has his deity simplifying the approach, allowing him to use his deeply held convictions, along with what amounts to begging for power, to call upon a portion of the accumulated power of the Builder.

What are your (plural possessive) thoughts on this matter?

[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Contemplative.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]

Solabusca on 20/11/2007 at 05:35

Quote Posted by Baalak

Actually, I think that <Username> was being a bit disingenious in referring to it as his treatise - a lot of it is wholesale quoting of things that I've written (or things that have been written by others, some of it quoting my own ideas!) from threads here - most notably the Collector Tower thread, as well as a few others.

There's a lot of verbatim in this document.

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Your game uses belief-based magic, then, <Username>? Reminiscent of White Wolf's Mage series (if you're familiar with it)?

More than familiar with it, but the magic in Thief doesn't seem belief-based so much as willpower-based.

The magical energies exist - that's not open for debate. The Aether exists as a constant, as well, the medium through which magic energies flow through the Thief world.

Belief is only one means of tapping into the Aetherial energy (the one used as a focus by the Priests and Shamans).

Force of will (as excercised by the mages) is another.

Each uses ritual, each uses broadly similar means of focus.

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I think that your idea and Peanuckle's are complimentary, if belief in magic can have an effect upon it then belief in a deity may have an effect upon it, too. I wouldn't go as far as The Elder Scrolls mythos goes, allowing a mortal soul to ascend to godhood if enough people believe in its divinity, and a god being forgotten and becoming little more than a wisp of its former self, but maybe I should. It could work well in the gameworld.

I've always like the concept of Man creating Gods, as Ellison put forth in the Deathbird Stories. I'd suggest that both the Trickster and the Builder are this sort of being - the Trickster was, perhaps, created after the fall of Karath-Din, after the Elder Gods (Lovecraft's Cthulu Mythos is mentioned in the Thief setting) went to sleep. The Trickster could be the coalescing of the primal energies that the survivors of KD worshiped - the things that scared them in the dark, the harvest they needed to live, the whole of nature tooth and claw. The Trickster is only ONE of the Old Gods.

The Builder could very well be an ascended mortal, or a god that came into being after a powerful mortal man was worshiped enough.

I'd suggest that this is due to the nature of the Aether - yes, this sort of deity would require belief to have power.

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The belief doesn't make the magic possible, it instead allows it to be shaped through learned and practiced processes. An Elementalist must spend years learning to manipulate the Aether before he can wield the magic of his peers, but a priest of the Order of the Hammer has his deity simplifying the approach, allowing him to use his deeply held convictions, along with what amounts to begging for power, to call upon a portion of the accumulated power of the Builder.

I think that they use different channels to net the same effect - the Elementalist uses his force of will to weild the elemental forces, using those 'spells' he has learned as his template for controlling them.

The Priest uses his belief in the Builder (or the Trickster, or another god) to do the same - uttering prayers vs. incantations.

.j.

jtr7 on 20/11/2007 at 06:15

Quote:

An attempt to gather every post about magic on ttlg - among others by Solabusca, Snakeskin and jtr-7.

I'd like to make a request, Username, that the posts include our names, as well, please. That way, it makes more sense when read, credit is given where credit is due, and people are less likely to get the wrong idea. Otherwise, have fun compiling!:thumb:

It reads like someone arguing with him or herself, at this point.:D

Solabusca on 20/11/2007 at 07:10

Quote Posted by jtr7

I'd like to make a request, <Username>, that the posts include our names, as well, please. That way, it makes more sense when read, credit is given where credit is due, and people are less likely to get the wrong idea. Otherwise, have fun compiling!:thumb:

It reads like someone arguing with him or herself, at this point.:D

Indeed. And given that a lot of it is verbatim quotes, some attribution would be appropriate!

.j.

Baalak on 21/11/2007 at 04:12

Quote Posted by Solabusca

I'm inclined to agree with this, and I'd like to bring up a third way of tapping the Aether. A mechanical means. As has been suggested, the collectors throughout the City are tapping into the Aetheric energy to gather electricity. The people of the City have found ways of using electric power to run lights, but I'm unsure if they've mastered the magnetic portion of that energy.

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An interesting idea: If the Trickster is one of the so called Old Gods, and the gods of Karath-Din were like Lovecraft's Elder Gods, do you think the latter are beholden to the power of belief, or are they merely horrible cosmic entities from beyond the stars? Might they return if said stars are right? Oh, dear God, I think you've giving me a wonderfully wretched idea for the endgame... Heheheh.

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The Builder could very well be an ascended mortal, or a god that came into being after a powerful mortal man was worshiped enough.

I'd suggest that this is due to the nature of the Aether - yes, this sort of deity would require belief to have power.

I prefer the latter, rather than the former, because I am hesitant to put that sort of potential into mortal souls, but the idea here is a compelling one (and refreshingly different from the cosmology that one of my players is using in HIS game).
The grave in the Barricades which Garrett puts a few coins on for good luck, might this memorial have spawned a minor power among the thieves of the City, and might it have weakened and died after the walls were put up?

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Lots of great ideas. You seem to be suggesting that the magic that the Hand uses is the same as the Builder's miracles, and that only the method of control differs. While a cool idea, I'm not sure I want to write out tapping into the power of a being which feeds off of belief, a Jungian collective consciousness of sorts. I think the magic has much in common, but I don't think they're identical, and I'm not sure how they would interact.

[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called The Crawling Chaos![/INDENT][/RIGHT]