Solabusca on 21/11/2007 at 05:54
Quote:
An interesting idea: If the Trickster is one of the so called Old Gods, and the gods of Karath-Din were like Lovecraft's Elder Gods, do you think the latter are beholden to the power of belief, or are they merely horrible cosmic entities from beyond the stars? Might they return if said stars are right? Oh, dear God, I think you've giving me a wonderfully wretched idea for the endgame... Heheheh.
Exactly what I suspect. The Elder Gods were Lovecraftian cosmic entities; the newer gods are something different - more like what we think of when Gods are discussed.
The worship of ancient dark gods is mentioned in at least one set of Fan Missions - Calendra's Cistern has a major plot point detailing a Cthulhu cult, and Legacy has the 'Falstaff Brotherhood' and their extradimensional guardian.
Baalak on 21/11/2007 at 21:31
So, this seems to suggest a cosmology rather different from the one assumed in Dungeons and Dragons.
On the highest level, there are the Elder Gods, which are beings from other planes of existence, with no love for mortals, who were once worshiped by the Precursors.
Below them in scale are Powers, the Old Gods, the Master Builder, spirits of one form or another who seem to derive power from belief in their existence and devout worship. Able to grant a portion of their power to their followers, but exceedingly inhuman in outlook- possibly incapable of understanding things from a mortal point of view, as we're incapable of truly understanding our pets or pests. I say this because it seems the Builder cares nothing for the suffering of humanity, and slavishly devotes itself to its dogma.
Outside of the Thief world we know there to exist Elemental Planes, else where did Azaran the Cruel disappear to when he left his tower? There are also Fire Elementals in Karath-Din, but I wonder whether these are entities which exist on their own, or some form of diffused weaker Power. I suspect they exist outside the Thief world and aren't created by belief, but perhaps summoned spontaneously by it.
Do we have any references for things like Demons, Devils, Angels, etc.? Is there a Hell in the Thief universe? Where do souls go when they die? Do souls exist? Might the Powers do something with them? If belief has power, is this power generated by the soul? This would give the Trickster a great reason to help the Pagans out- they're soul factories.
There are beast peoples in the Thief world- Ape Men, Cray Men, Kurshok, etc. These beings seem to be very old, and have been mostly forgotten by humanity after their flight from darkness and subsequent embracing of the Master Builder. Forgotten or not, they remain behind, skulking in the shadows. We don't know much about them, do we? Does their belief keep the Old Gods alive, or are (
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial) Humans Special? Does a Crayman have a soul?
Then we're getting back into Magics, so I'll stop here and hope for some more ideas and suggestions.
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Special.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
Solabusca on 21/11/2007 at 22:14
Quote Posted by Baalak
So, this seems to suggest a cosmology rather different from the one assumed in Dungeons and Dragons.
Not necessarily. Both Lovecraftian Elder Beings and ascended mortals can exist in the D&D paradigm. But if you're referring to the Gygaxian 'Circle of Planes', then yeah - very different.
Quote:
On the highest level, there are the Elder Gods, which are beings from other planes of existence, with no love for mortals, who were once worshiped by the Precursors.
Below them in scale are Powers, the Old Gods, the Master Builder, spirits of one form or another who seem to derive power from belief in their existence and devout worship. Able to grant a portion of their power to their followers, but exceedingly inhuman in outlook- possibly incapable of understanding things from a mortal point of view, as we're incapable of truly understanding our pets or pests. I say this because it seems the Builder cares nothing for the suffering of humanity, and slavishly devotes itself to its dogma.
Again, all hearsay. Since you're running your game using D&D, the mechanics of magic are unimportant, really. You have a pre-existing system: the Vancian magic system that D&D espouses.
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Outside of the Thief world we know there to exist Elemental Planes, else where did Azaran the Cruel disappear to when he left his tower? There are also Fire Elementals in Karath-Din, but I wonder whether these are entities which exist on their own, or some form of diffused weaker Power. I suspect they exist outside the Thief world and aren't created by belief, but perhaps summoned spontaneously by it.
Actually, I don't think that 'Elemental Planes' exist in the Thief world. We know that there are multiple planes of existence, as the Maw of Chaos shows; but I don't think that it's as trite as the D&D cosmology.
If anything, it seems closer to Warhammer Fantasy Role-Playing game in terms of both cosmology and magic.
Oh, and finally - Azaran is still in the Necromancer's Spire - his body, suicide note and all, can be found in the secret sub-basement area; apparently he failed in his goals.
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Do we have any references for things like Demons, Devils, Angels, etc.? Is there a Hell in the Thief universe? Where do souls go when they die? Do souls exist? Might the Powers do something with them? If belief has power, is this power generated by the soul? This would give the Trickster a great reason to help the Pagans out- they're soul factories.
To the Hammerites, the Trickster is the Devil. The Maw is Hell. Hammerites believe in an afterlife where the Builder seperates good from bad as 'steel from dross'. So that, and the presence of undead of various sorts, would indicate that souls exist.
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There are beast peoples in the Thief world- Ape Men, Cray Men, Kurshok, etc. These beings seem to be very old, and have been mostly forgotten by humanity after their flight from darkness and subsequent embracing of the Master Builder. Forgotten or not, they remain behind, skulking in the shadows. We don't know much about them, do we? Does their belief keep the Old Gods alive, or are (
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial) Humans Special? Does a Crayman have a soul?
Sure. Why not. I'd suggest that anything 'self-aware/sentient' qualifies.
Apebeasts and Ratbeasts seem to be Trickster creatures, inhabitants of the Maw (or Pagans that have been warped by the power of the Maw - look at the guards in Constantine's manor both before and after his great revelation.)
Craymen are known; I'm certain that the people of the Thief world consider them either unintelligent or incredibly primitive and violent savages, fit only for destruction.
Kurshok are basically an ancient race that has fallen from memory. Humans don't know 'em.
We don't have a lot else on the 'races' of the ThiefVerse. Given what we know, it seems to be a humano-centric world; there are hints of other creatures (double-headed ogres, for one, or more Trickster creatures like bugbeasts and the only existing in artwork Snakebeast), but I'd say that all such creatures are rare and treated as monsters by Humanity.
Quote:
Then we're getting back into Magics, so I'll stop here and hope for some more ideas and suggestions.
Well, again - you're using D&D. You've got things set up - just don't sweat the planar details too much.
For a D&D game, I'd set it as follows:
* Gods give Clerics power. Druids can tap into the Green for power.
* Wizards/Sorcerers operate as normal.
.j.
jtr7 on 21/11/2007 at 22:27
Whether or not there are Elemental Planes, Azaran believed he was going to the "Plane of Earth.:"
M11B10.str: "My essence is now forever preserved in the Plane of Earth, beyond the reaches of fear and Fire."
The Hand Mages feared what Azaran might do with the Book of ASH, but...as far as we know, Azaran didn't do anything too worrisome. The Order of the Hammer brings a lot more problems to The City than the Order of the Hand.:D
This could be chalked up to the Hand being just as ignorant of anything beyond this existence as humans generally are. They may believe in the elemental planes, but that doesn't mean they exist.
Baalak on 21/11/2007 at 22:45
You're correct in that, for the purposes of Game System, how things work magically is fairly irrelevant, but while I'm using the d20 system, I'm not using the Dungeons and Dragons magic rules, and even if I were, I would still want to know this stuff. Even if the players don't find out most of this knowledge, I still want to know and have it decided as soon as possible because it helps shape the way I craft the game.
I'm using a heavily modified version of (
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2699) The Elements of Magic Revised for my magic system, and it leaves a great deal of the how in the hands of the GM and players. Because of this, knowing how the different types of magic work can help me to come up with better ways of representing the different Traditions of magic wielders within the rules.
The Cosmology I tend to assume for Dungeons and Dragons is the Great Wheel, with the Inner, Outer, and Prime Material Planes. Thief has no references to Outer Planes, unless you think the Maw of Chaos applies. I'm not sure it should.
Like jtr7 said, Azaran believed he was going to the Plane of Earth. Seems he had to shed his corporeal form to get there, too. I'd forgotten that; it'll change things when the PC's go looking for him. I'm inclines to believe he got there, or, at least left this plane for another. Though it seems he needed to use Necromancy to arrive, I wonder if the PC's couldn't follow after him through some form of Astral Projection. (Aetheric Projection?)
I know we're running into the lands of hearsay and rumor, but to finish the preparation for my game and get some real answers, at some point I'll need to decide that, despite an idea not being canon, it
is for the purposes of my game.
What do you think the Powers are like?
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Homebrewer.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
Solabusca on 21/11/2007 at 23:00
Quote Posted by jtr7
Whether or not there
are Elemental Planes, Azaran
believed he was going to the "Plane of Earth.:"
M11B10.str: "My essence is now forever preserved in the Plane of Earth, beyond the reaches of fear and Fire."Damnit, something was nagging at me. Thanks for catching it, jtr7.
[EDIT: Yep, sounds like he was attempting to gain immortality - not that he was attempting to travel to the Plane of Earth, but that he was attempting to store his 'essence' (soul?) there. Could be code for lichdom. Given that Azaran was an elemental Hand mage before turning to Dark magic, it makes sense that he'd equate things spiritually in terms of elemental forces - for instance, he refers to Fire as a destructive force - which would open a whole new conversation about what each element is equated with in the Hand philosophy.]
Quote:
The Hand Mages feared what Azaran might do with the Book of ASH, but...as far as we know, Azaran didn't do anything too worrisome. The Order of the Hammer brings a lot more problems to The City than the Order of the Hand.:D
Well, given that the BoA can assist with the creation of undead, that can be pretty frickin' dangerous - imagine the City's response to another Cataclysm - this time in Dayport!
Quote:
This could be chalked up to the Hand being just as ignorant of anything beyond this existence as humans generally are. They may believe in the elemental planes, but that doesn't mean they exist.
Given that it's mentioned in that note (totally forgotten by me), I'd be willing to subscribe to the theory that elemental energies spring from elemental planes and flow through the Aether to the ThiefWorld.
Thanks, again, for catching it.
Quote Posted by Baalak
The Cosmology I tend to assume for Dungeons and Dragons is the Great Wheel, with the Inner, Outer, and Prime Material Planes. Thief has no references to Outer Planes, unless you think the Maw of Chaos applies. I'm not sure it should.
I figured that's what you were doing. Again, I'd recommend looking at the WFRP cosmology, as it seems to be a bit better of a fit.
Quote:
Like jtr7 said, Azaran believed he was going to the Plane of Earth. Seems he had to shed his corporeal form to get there, too. I'd forgotten that; it'll change things when the PC's go looking for him. I'm inclines to believe he got there, or, at least left this plane for another. Though it seems he needed to use Necromancy to arrive, I wonder if the PC's couldn't follow after him through some form of Astral Projection. (Aetheric Projection?)
You're assuming, then, that the Book of Ash would give accurate information? Perhaps that's what Azaran thought - but in the end, he KILLED himself to accomplish his goals.
Really, given the nature of the BoA, it makes more sense that it's a Lovecraftian Grimoire, and a corrupt one at that.
.j.
jtr7 on 21/11/2007 at 23:17
Haha. Yeah, I keep thinking of the Bonehoard and the Hammer/Undead ties, especially the TDS additions.
I looked through the texts for the Mages mission to see if there was more on the Planes, but there isn't.
I think the fear of a potential evil was stronger than the reality. Azaran experimented with necromancy on animals, but animal experimentation is common within the Order. Given the general cruelty of the factions (the Keepers being the least cruel), and all the powers that be, I'd like to know what Azaran has done that he calls himself "the Cruel". Is it the damning of souls to remain trapped in rotting flesh rather than leaving this plane of existence? Was he really an animal-lover, but deemed his cruel experiments on them a necessary evil? Heh.
If there had been a stronger mention of what the Book of Ash made possible for the Hand to fear its rediscovery, we'd have more to work with. Azaran was banned, then the Mages heard rumor that Azaran was getting a group together to look for the Book of Ash, it was proposed that the Mages do something to stop Azaran, Azaran found the Book of Ash in "sands of long forgotten kings (EGYPT? Heh heh.)", Azaran believed himself successful before he met his true fate.
A throw-away idea, connecting dots that probably shouldn't be: The two zombies that appear when you open the Book of Ash could be two undead Hand Mages (nekkid!) that came to stop Azaran and failed, so they are now guardians of the Book.
jtr7 on 22/11/2007 at 01:35
CONCERNING AZARAN the CRUEL
M16b01azr: "Mage Verlin,
Azaran's interest in Necromancy has not diminished, despite his banishment. His study of the black arts continues at his spire in Dayport. We fear that his experiments with the reanimation of rats and insects will lead to more disturbing depths. He has even endeavored to recruit others on a crusade to recover The Book of Ash.
The Book of Ash must remain a thing of the past. Azaran's ambition has blinded him to this, and he has proven himself a threat to our existence. His expulsion has only made him more resilient.
It is the decision of the Inner Circle that greater measures be taken to correct this matter.
Archmage Corino"
The ORDER of the HAND
M16b06creed: "So like we once were, are these who now inhabit this land. They are the chrysalis that shall become. We have adopted those few who have shown potential for enlightenment.
-from the notes of Archmage Garod's Prophecies"
M16b10shp: "Cellarer Abrucha,
We urgently need the chemicals last requested. Two days hence we'll be sending young Lucca to the city. Have one of your helpers accompany him. Also, see if you can add 3 goats, a camel, and a burrick to the animals gathered for the next round of experiments.
- Adept Haseki Beyzar"
M16b08exit: "I can finally get back to work, my apologies for being behind schedule on the new round of vivisection. The workmen have finally cleared out, having just finished walling up the last main entrance to those infernal sewers. The old sewers are still largely unmapped, but present too much of a security risk to be left. I find it amazing that they reach back to the city despite our distance from it. There is still the one secret entrance that we can use to traverse the sewers. The guards that patrol it will deal with anything unfortunate enough to struggle out of that muck.
- Adept Haseki Beyzar"
M16b12pain: "To read these words is to know pain. To know pain is to live in fear. To fear is to travel the false path. You must face your fear to see the truth. The truth is that there is no pain. To know this truth is to walk the enlightened path.
-The Book of Paths 6:13"
M16b11tower: "Notice to all servants and guards,
Herein let it be known that the four towers of MageKeep are sacrosanct and thus off limits to the Commons. Only those Adept may enter. Guards may enter the tower foyers on business, but may not proceed upwards.
- Archmage Ibn Al Haroud"
M16b14emerg: "The Tower of Water has been closed due to recent disasters. None may pass by orders of the Inner Circle. All important work from this tower has been moved to the Central Keep.
--Inner Circle"
The AIR Hand Mages
M16b02air: "Air elementals often speak to us by extinguishing certain lights in a sequential pattern. It is important that we study these patterns so that we may understand the wisdom of their message.
-The Inner Circle."
The EARTH Hand Mages
M16b03earth: "Cool earth wraps tightly around us. Constrictive veins of tower tunnels caress beating heart of grinding rock. In mastery of my element, I leap from stone to falling stone. Boulders float as feathers.
- scribbled poetry, Adept Aroun's notebook"
The FIRE Hand Mages
M16b04fire: "To Adept Al-Hayr,
Lt. Scarle disobeyed Capt. Regalio's specific orders and ventured into the Tower of Fire. Needless to say he was ill prepared to deal with the trials of flame and lava that await all entrants. The charred corpse was brought to the laboratories where it will be put to good use. The fire can cleanse us, but it is not for the Commons. See to it that this incident serves as an example to others.
-Archmage Kahmin Ramin"
The WATER Hand Mages
"Mastery of Water requires that you return to the ways of your beginning. For nine moons you lived in Water, and then were born to a world of Air and Earth. You have forgotten your past but we will teach you to remember. Put away mortal thoughts of breath and discover the ways of the sea. Do not walk the path with your limbs; instead allow your body to flow within it and become part of it.
Until you have gained full
mastery over Water, return to
the Air, oh adept, and cherish
its protective succor. In time
you will feel the warm embrace
of Water, traversing the entire
system without need of breath.
- The Book of Coral and Scale 7:12"
The treasured TALISMAN(S)
M16b07tali: "Notes from council session of the Inner Circle
- Due to a disastrous experiment by Archmage Jabu Ibn Lani the Water Tower will be closed until further notice due to flooding. All future experiments using water elementals are forbidden by mutual consent of the Inner Circle until we can devise stronger wards.
- Our keep must remain unified and maintain tradition. Each Tower holds the key of another to maintain the Doctrine of Trust. Since the key to the Tower of Water was lost controlling the accident, the fire mages have no symbol to guard. Therefore the fire mages shall keep the key to the chamber in the Central Tower that holds our treasured possession. The key to the Tower of Earth shall remain in the Tower of Water, since the water mages are the only ones who can survive entering the flooded areas.
- Archmage Kreos"
M16b09medal: "Recovering the golden medallion of Saint Burringden will reward all the sweat I put into the endless hunt for those damned talismans. By selling it I will surely make some profit off of this ordeal. In all my years of service to the Hand I have never seen their efforts so thoroughly stymied. It's almost as though one of their own had taken and hidden the talismans so completely that not even the archmages can find them.
- Capt. E. F. Regalio"
M16b15lock: "At night the four towers are locked and unlocked by the Elemental Tower Keys. None may enter or exit except by following the order of the Ritual of Opening. The keys must be gathered, one from each tower, in the order the Ritual proscribes. Each Tower Key unlocks the next tower till all are open and the path is once more clear.
--Inner Circle"
M16b13open: "Instructional treatise:
Listen well, oh novice, to the lore of your elders. The Ritual of Opening shows the way and the true path." [To get the Talisman!]
"We use the ritual as the ceremonial guide for all our work. The guarding wards and our wondrous towers all lock using this, the natural order of the elements.
The Ritual of Opening
Dark waters surged flooding the world as they bore life,
Hard earth then rose giving substance and strife,
Storm breath blew binding the land in halos of wrath
Last came raging flames cleansing minds for the final path.
--Inner Circle"
M16reward: "Eight old men up in a tower
Eight old men, only one with power
turn away from the hand with the sword
count seven and find your reward"
E3Mage1: "Archmagus Kesthul allows that we should stay on in this ruin to our liking. The molten veins provide energy for enchantments. Our quest, then, was not full a failure, though uncovering the Talisman of Fire could not be. Spells of divination reveal it stolen from the Tower by the city thief known as Garrett, which accounts his access to the Hammer's Cathedral months ago. The fool is dangerous to all around him, believes not in knowledge. We shall track him down to confess how he disposed of the Talisman when use to him expired."
E3Mage2: "The location you devise will suffice until warding spells are cast. None is about to thieve the artifact, and only one as us who walks on fire would have able."
If thou doth wish it, I shalt post the Mages transcriptions, as well.
Baalak on 22/11/2007 at 01:57
Quote Posted by Solabusca
Yep, sounds like he was attempting to gain immortality - not that he was attempting to travel to the Plane of Earth, but that he was attempting to store his 'essence' (soul?) there. Could be code for lichdom. Given that Azaran was an elemental Hand mage before turning to Dark magic, it makes sense that he'd equate things spiritually in terms of elemental forces - for instance, he refers to Fire as a destructive force - which would open a whole new conversation about what each element is equated with in the Hand philosophy.
Such great ideas here. I'm not sure what I should do with this. I'm reluctant to make him a Lich, at least in the rotting corpse sense. Storing his soul in a vessel (phylactery is such an awesome word) could make lots of sense for him however.
Quote:
You're assuming, then, that the Book of Ash would give accurate information? Perhaps that's what Azaran thought - but in the end, he KILLED himself to accomplish his goals.
Really, given the nature of the BoA, it makes more sense that it's a Lovecraftian Grimoire, and a corrupt one at that.
Also a good point, although I suspect Azaran would make a great insane cult leader type, rather than succumb to corruption and kill himself. An insane mage who's soul is locked away and can't be killed would make a horrific foe, and one I'd be remiss to pass up, especially since he's probably now trying to either revive or, worse, become an Elder God.
Quote:
Well, given that the BoA can assist with the creation of undead, that can be pretty frickin' dangerous - imagine the City's response to another Cataclysm - this time in Dayport!
Exactly why the Hand Brotherhood banished him to begin wi.. err.. Why DID they banish him, and not simply execute him for his crimes?
Quote:
Given that it's mentioned in that note (totally forgotten by me), I'd be willing to subscribe to the theory that elemental energies spring from elemental planes and flow through the Aether to the ThiefWorld.
Now, are the Elemental planes merely a source of energy, or are they places to which one could travel, even if only by magic? If they
are places, what might they be like?
Quote:
I figured that's what you were doing. Again, I'd recommend looking at the WFRP cosmology, as it seems to be a bit better of a fit.
Could you suggest any websites which describe it?
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Interested.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
Baalak on 22/11/2007 at 02:58
Quote Posted by jtr7
Haha. Yeah, I keep thinking of the Bonehoard and the Hammer/Undead ties, especially the TDS additions.
It does seem to me that the Hammerites and the Undead seem to go hand in hand. We don't see haunts who aren't wearing their armor, do we? Most of the apparitions look like hammer priests, too (at least last I recall, I haven't played T1 in years now). I wonder what the connection is.
Quote:
I looked through the texts for the Mages mission to see if there was more on the Planes, but there isn't.
I think the fear of a potential evil was stronger than the reality. Azaran experimented with necromancy on animals, but animal experimentation is common within the Order. Given the general cruelty of the factions (the Keepers being the least cruel), and all the powers that be, I'd like to know what Azaran has done that he calls himself "the Cruel". Is it the damning of souls to remain trapped in rotting flesh rather than leaving this plane of existence? Was he really an animal-lover, but deemed his cruel experiments on them a necessary evil? Heh.
I too have wondered how he acquired his moniker, and I suspect it was given to him by his brethren and not chosen for himself. Although, he may have taken it on as a deterrent against the young adepts approaching him for assistance. I have no idea why, though figuring it out could help to flesh out his character.
Quote:
If there had been a stronger mention of what the Book of Ash made possible for the Hand to fear its rediscovery, we'd have more to work with. Azaran was banned, then the Mages heard rumor that Azaran was getting a group together to look for the Book of Ash, it was proposed that the Mages do something to stop Azaran, Azaran found the Book of Ash in "sands of long forgotten kings (EGYPT? Heh heh.)", Azaran believed himself successful before he met his true fate.
The egypt-like reference is really pushing me to think of the Book of Ash less as a book of Necromancy (despite the zombies it seemingly summons) and more as a Mythos Tome. Make a sanity check. My players wouldn't appreciate being dragged into a Cthulhu game, though, so I think this book and the Elder Gods should be rather unique in the setting, rather than the baseline. Magic doesn't drive you mad, you can gaze at monsters without losing your mind, etc. Although, I
do think I should play up the horror elements of the setting.
Quote:
A throw-away idea, connecting dots that probably shouldn't be: The two zombies that appear when you open the Book of Ash could be two undead Hand Mages (nekkid!) that came to stop Azaran and failed, so they are now guardians of the Book.
While a possibility, I doubt it. A cramped tower doesn't strike me as an ideal place to keep zombies around, even if you are a mad necromancer. I don't think I'll have my copy of the Book of Ash summon the dead, even if it makes it less canon. The horror of a Mythos Tome should be enough.
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak Fthagn![/INDENT][/RIGHT]
