Solabusca on 22/11/2007 at 05:48
Quote Posted by Baalak
Exactly why the Hand Brotherhood banished him to begin wi.. err.. Why DID they banish him, and not simply execute him for his crimes?
Well, he was banished for showing an interest in Necromancy. I'm guessing that they didn't figure he would amount to much after kicking him out - hence the letter about him posted above, where they discuss what to do with him in the aftermath of his banishment and continuing studies.
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It does seem to me that the Hammerites and the Undead seem to go hand in hand. We don't see haunts who aren't wearing their armor, do we? Most of the apparitions look like hammer priests, too (at least last I recall, I haven't played T1 in years now). I wonder what the connection is.
I find the connection both tenuous and incredibly circumstantial - I'd say it really has to do with where we encounter the Undead, and with the burial habits of the setting.
For instance, I've already commented in other threads on my views about how undead are created in the ThiefVerse, and what precipitated the Cataclysm in the Old Quarter (a massive surge of Dark energy that occurred when the Hammerites of the day decided to try and use the Eye). Therefore, a lot of the undead in the Old Quarter are Hammerite-based.
Most bodies we find (undead or just plain dead) aren't buried in armour and carrying weapons unlike the Hammerite brethern.
Finally - we come across other apparitions through the series of games. I'd suggest that the 'priest' apparitions are abundant in the OQ (and the OMs) due to the previously noted circumstance.
We come across other undead where death/mourning/murder/torture/strong negative emotions occur.
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The egypt-like reference is really pushing me to think of the Book of Ash less as a book of Necromancy (despite the zombies it seemingly summons) and more as a Mythos Tome.
The fact that the developers have come out and said that it is a tribute to Lovecraftian-based Mythos Tomes is something on record.
.j.
<Username> on 23/11/2007 at 12:12
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wholesale quoting of things that I've written
Yes, not a treatise yet indeed.
Just wanted to note that in my campaign Azaran failed, the ritual backfired and he is now trying to get back from the netherworld he his confined to.
Snakeskin on 4/12/2007 at 00:40
Checking back a few weeks later, what have we here? Is it perhaps a person, eager and willing, to pursue the same goals such as myself?
Is he open to mutual cooperation in these goals, and curious about this individuals work so far?
I do not know how much of my material you have, but your ideas are similar to mine. Especially those on the elements.
Send me a greeting: [email]samgullman@gmail.com[/email]
and we will have some beneficial conversation.
Solabusca on 4/12/2007 at 01:15
Quote Posted by Snakeskin
Checking back a few weeks later, what have we here? Is it perhaps a person, eager and willing, to pursue the same goals such as myself?
Is he open to mutual cooperation in these goals, and curious about this individuals work so far?
I do not know how much of my material you have, but your ideas are similar to mine. Especially those on the elements.
Send me a greeting: [email]samgullman@gmail.com[/email]
and we will have some beneficial conversation.
They're actually pulled from conversations that have already existed, Snakeskin.
I'll point out (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118302) THIS thread for you, though. I've been meaning to post to it myself, but November was a fairly busy (and crushing) month for me.
.j.
jtr7 on 4/12/2007 at 01:36
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...November was a fairly busy (and crushing) month for me.
Sorry to hear that, man. That, to me, raises the value of your recent contributions.:thumb: I know several people who the term "crush(ed)(ing)" would apply, right now.:(
Baalak on 4/12/2007 at 05:27
Solabusca, while I am unaware of the circumstances behind your crushing feelings, I feel for you and appreciate what you have posted in the last month. I hope December finds you in a better situation, and that you have much to look forward to in the new year. Oh, and thank you for the link. I doubt I'd have noticed it without your pointing it out.
Snakeskin, I had tried to send you and a few other people e-mails through the TTLG interface, but I'm not sure they got through to anyone. Whether or not, I'd be happy to talk, both in the forum (it is friendlier and more helpful than I could ever have hoped; you guys all rock,) and through e-mail. This discussion was drying up until you posted, so thank you for revitalizing it.
So why not try to get things rolling again? No one's suggested the next topic for discussion, so I think I'll take a stab. We've brought it up, but I think it deserves a full discussion. In the Thief universe, what happens to you when you die?
Is there an afterlife, or does your existence cease when you pass away? If there is an afterlife, is it universal, or do your actions in life affect what sort of afterlife you get? Does worshiping any of the deities change where you go/what you get? What if you worship one of the Elder Gods? What, if any, evidence can we find to support any of these ideas in the Thief games?
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Spiritual.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
jtr7 on 4/12/2007 at 05:33
Well, Brother Murus's beliefs remain steady and unchanged about the afterlife.
It would seem that getting trapped in the spectral state/plane is merely a nuisance.
With all the necromantic energy around, undeath seems to be bothersome and dreadful. Abhorrent to Hammers.
Baalak on 4/12/2007 at 05:39
What would I ever do without your prompt and insightful posts, jtr7? Thank you once again.
I would argue that Murus' beliefs remain unchanged because whatever afterlife he has been expecting was denied him until after Garrett fixed his problem. After that, we don't get to chat much with him, so your guess is as good as mine. Does he say anything which might imply a greater understanding of the actual process, or merely spiritual conviction?
The Order of the Hammer does seem to despise Necromantic energy in all its forms, and I would agree that becoming undead would be like hell for a Hammerite. Would it be for a Pagan, though? They seem to view Death energy as something much less vile. Almost as though it were as natural as Life energy (which we've so far agreed it seems to be).
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Vile.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
jtr7 on 4/12/2007 at 05:46
The Pagans seem to see death for themselves without fear, unless it comes from their enemies, which they also have no qualms about killing and feeding their plants with. In TDS, the Pagans see undeath as something to toy with.
Curiously, the Hammers never seem to know that Karras was involved with necromancy.
Also, Murus doesn't gain any deeper insight from that in-between state, except perhaps his knowledge of Haunts, but TDS made it known that Haunts are included in their teachings. Murus's belief that Brother Renault's spirit needed help, too, was apparently true, as was his belief about Brother Martello. Through Murus, we see he has apparently accurate knowledge about four different states of afterlife, represented by himself, Renault, Martello, and the Haunts. What actually happens when the spirits are free/feel free to move on, is still the great mystery.
Solabusca on 4/12/2007 at 05:51
Well, common folk (guards, actually) do tend to refer to Hell, so we can assume that there is a belief in one.
Quote Posted by jtr7
The Pagans seem to see death for themselves without fear, unless it comes from their enemies, which they also have no qualms about killing and feeding their plants with. In TDS, the Pagans see undeath as something to toy with.
Curiously, the Hammers never seem to know that Karras was involved with necromancy.
I'd suggest that they see their own afterlife as related to the Trickster (thinking the ghost of the little girl, and the mother that calls her away after she hands over her doll), perhaps even a death/rebirth cycle to go along with nature (pure speculation, on my part).
I'd suggest that the pagan Necromancy in TDS was a sort of 'last resort' action - they're using a specific item (a Necromancer's wand) that suggests that it's not an inherent practice. Notes for the T2G missions suggest that Pagans find necromancy just as abhorrent as Hammerites do (especially since it operates outside of the "natural" cycle).
As to the Hammerites - I think they chalk a lot up to blackest heresy - I'd suspect that anyone in the know about the particulars of the Servant project would have already been eliminated by Karras, or converted in Soulforge; after all, it's probably not something that rank-and-file Mechanist acolytes were advised of.
Add to that the fact that most or all of the servants were eliminated in the Soulforge incident, and you've got a fairly complete 'whitewash'.
.j.
