Solabusca on 5/12/2007 at 14:13
Quote Posted by Snakeskin
Except that we do
not even know that he reads a verse from that element,
also that he starts the ritual from that point in the star-shape.
It seems logical that he would begin with the tip for "borning", that is aether, the force allowing the six elements to function, and
then go on summoning the six.
However, this discussion is OT and i do not feel like waking an old thread.
Actually, we know that we've walked in on him performing the ritual, and that one verse has already been recited - that one 'tip' has already been activated, indicating that the associated element has been invoked.
Aether is the medium, for my money - more like luminiferous aether, a transmission medium, which in and of itself is more similar to a coterminous plane concept (see Shadowrun's 'astral' plane, D&D's Ethereal/Astral, and Werewolf: The Apocalypse's Umbra).
Interestingly enough, the concept of aether as a transmission medium was popular in the 19th Century in our world. Given that the Theif-verse tends to regard it as a transmission medium (see: Garrett's Eye), it's interesting to note.
.j.
Snakeskin on 5/12/2007 at 14:42
Quote Posted by Solabusca
Actually, we know that we've walked in on him performing the ritual, and that one verse has already been recited - that one 'tip' has already been activated, indicating that the associated element has been invoked.
Aether is the medium, for my money - more like luminiferous aether, a transmission medium, which in and of itself is more similar to a coterminous plane concept (see Shadowrun's 'astral' plane, D&D's Ethereal/Astral, and Werewolf: The Apocalypse's Umbra).
.j.
We do not know if any verse had been recited, or if it had been, if it was aimed at an "element". The tip had been activated, but if that tip represents the binding force it is logical.
For me, the Aether is the binding force, or in living beings, the soul. Thus the ring for aether is located in the torso of the man in TBoA. Ghosts persist in the aetherial plane as well, and will appear as concentrated dots of "aether", that is the elements in a living creature.
The "soul" will look exactly like the ghost from T3's cradle.
The trickster summons the aether first to be able to 'bind' or combine the other six later in the ritual. The Aether and the 'aetherial plane' is two different things. Like an ocean and water. (or the vibrating strings in string theory if you like ^^)
Also, the idea of 6 elements plus a binding force is much more symmetrical, generally logical and supported by the TBoA picture and the placing of the circles.
EDIT: And as both medium and plane, it is perfectly possible to transmit energy or information to and from the material plane.
Solabusca on 5/12/2007 at 14:57
Quote Posted by Snakeskin
We do not know if any verse had been recited, or if it had been, if it was aimed at an "element". The tip had been activated, but if that tip represents the binding force it is logical.
We do, actually. He's cited it in the ritual notes. So we know that a verse has to have been cited, because it's been specifically mentioned in the ritual notes.
Additionally, if it were the 'binding force', why wouldn't it be in the centre of the star? That would be the logical place.
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For me, the Aether is the binding force, or in living beings, the soul. Thus the ring for aether is located in the torso of the man in TBoA. Ghosts persist in the aetherial plane as well, and will appear as concentrated dots of "aether", that is the elements in a living creature.
The "soul" will look exactly like the ghost from T3's cradle.
The Aether, as a plane, would be where ghosts exist. You've said that Borning = Aether. It makes no sense, then, that 'Borning' would be ghosts, given that we also postulate a negative, Dark energy that creates undead.
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The trickster summons the aether first to be able to 'bind' or combine the other six later in the ritual. The Aether and the 'aetherial plane' is two different things. Like an ocean and water. (or the vibrating strings in string theory if you like ^^)
Would it not, then, make more sense to summon it LAST? If it is the binding element, that is.
The Aether is mentioned specifically as a transmission medium, NOT as an element.
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Also, the idea of 6 elements plus a binding force is much more symmetrical, generally logical and supported by the TBoA picture and the placing of the circles.
Given that you think that the central circle is 'borning', and I believe it is Green/Leaf, we're at odds.
It makes more sense to me to have the positive/birth related energy at the opposite end of the spectrum from the negative/death related energy, not in a central location, right next to it.
Oh, and the 7 elements makes more sense given BOTH the shape of the diagram in the Book of Ash AND the Trickster's ritual star.
[EDIT TO ADD: I should note for you that Baalak is basically using (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_Plane) D&D Inner Plane cosmology - four 'elemental' planes and two 'energy' planes (Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Positive, Negative) and the Prime Material Plane, representing the Thief forces of Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Borning, Darkness - and the combination of ALL of them is the Leaf/Green. ADDITIONALLY, he's utilizing the Ethereal plane as the transmission medium, as well as the location of demi-planes (which I'm assuming that he views the Maw of Chaos as). Correct me if I'm wrong, Baalak.]
Snakeskin on 5/12/2007 at 15:19
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We do, actually. He's cited it in the ritual notes. So we know that a verse has to have been cited, because it's been specifically mentioned in the ritual notes.
Okay then, fair point.
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Additionally, if it were the 'binding force', why wouldn't it be in the centre of the star? That would be the logical place.
Not really, since the eye is placed there. Summoning the Aether first will make the eye in the middle accessible to drawing power from the six elements. He is then creating a 'virtual soul' in the gem and fills it woth power, and i somehow think he intends to take that soul for himself..
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The Aether, as a plane, would be where ghosts exist. You've said that Borning = Aether. It makes no sense, then, that 'Borning' would be ghosts, given that we also postulate a negative, Dark energy that creates undead.
Yes, ghosts exist in the aetherial plane.
'Borning' means 'birth', right? That is the birth of a soul. Borning is the Tricksters way of giving birth to a soul that he creates, because the Aether is what allows him to bind the other elements together, it is what allows him to give birth to this soul.
In humans it is also 'borning' that creates the soul, and that sould consists of all six elements, and the magnitudes of them change from time to time.
Humans contain both 'light' and 'dark' forces, and as death draws near, the force of light fails to the force of dark.
The two struggle the whole life of a man as well, when disease strikes it is the dark force gettign the upper hand.
Ghosts are simply a 'soul' without a body. They exist in the aetherial plane, as a concentrated spot of 'aetherial energy' that also contains the peronality to soem degree, of the person.
Undead, differing from ghosts, do not posess a soul, or a very weak one. They do not need 'light' to move and act instinctually. They are bodies animated by the force of darkness and retain only the abilities that darkness represents in Man, the instincts to feed on other life.
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Would it not, then, make more sense to summon it LAST? If it is the binding element, that is.
Nope. That it wouldnt be binding anything, now would it?
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The Aether is mentioned specifically as a transmission medium, NOT as an element.
The notation of one, does not exclude the existance of the other. The 'Aether' in free form in the 'aetherial plane' (the ocean) is what is able to transmit information and energy (ripples on the water and waves, and streams).
So yes you are correct. And it is not an element either, it is the binding force of elements, that what i've been saying.
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Given that you think that the central circle is 'borning', and I believe it is Green/Leaf, we're at odds.
You got that right.
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It makes more sense to me to have the positive/birth related energy at the opposite end of the spectrum from the negative/death related energy, not in a central location, right next to it.
I interpret this way.
Positive/Life
Aether/Birth (or that which allows birth)
Negative/Death
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Oh, and the 7 elements makes more sense given BOTH the shape of the diagram in the Book of Ash AND the Trickster's ritual star.
No..?
Snakeskin on 5/12/2007 at 15:52
Oh and another thing..
to quote Viktoria 'as i draw my strength from this place..'
Plants contain souls, but to a much lesser extent than creatures. If a creature look like a 'glowing sphere' in the aetherial plane a collection of plants will be a 'softly glowing carpet'.
Strong souls, like those in creatures are very hard to draw energy from, since they are bound by a much greater force, and greater sense of awareness. Plants, however are collections of much lesser bound energies, and are an excellent source of life energy.
While undead are driven by dark energy, naturally collecting in places of death (where a lot of souls finally lost their struggle to dark energy) like cemetaries. There will be an abundance of dark energy here, and it will eventually animate bodies.
Solabusca on 5/12/2007 at 16:03
Quote Posted by Snakeskin
Not really, since the eye is placed there. Summoning the Aether first will make the eye in the middle accessible to drawing power from the six elements. He is then creating a 'virtual soul' in the gem and fills it woth power, and i somehow think he intends to take that soul for himself..
... and I honestly don't know where you're getting this. This has no connection with any other in-game ideas. What he is doing is channeling the power of the Eye, and using it to See - ie, to remake the world as he wishes it.
That, apparently, is something the Eye can do.
The Eye already has a soul, by the way. If you've played TDS, you'll know that.
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'Borning' means 'birth', right? That is the birth of a soul. Borning is the Tricksters way of giving birth to a soul that he creates, because the Aether is what allows him to bind the other elements together, it is what allows him to give birth to this soul.
In humans it is also 'borning' that creates the soul, and that sould consists of all six elements, and the magnitudes of them change from time to time.
Humans contain both 'light' and 'dark' forces, and as death draws near, the force of light fails to the force of dark.
The two struggle the whole life of a man as well, when disease strikes it is the dark force gettign the upper hand.
That's... pretty out there. I have no idea where you're getting this theory. At no point in the ritual notes, or the Ritual proper, does the Trickster talk about creating a soul. He talks about making the Eye see reality as he wishes it to be, and about the eye opening for him, and opening the way for him.
Not a damned thing about souls.
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Nope. That it wouldnt be binding anything, now would it?
... actually, that's EXACTLY what it would be. When you bind something, you tie everything else together. You don't tie a knot in a string and then collect all the things that knot is supposed to be tying together. You do it after you've gathered everything.
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I interpret this way.
Positive/Life
Aether/Birth (or that which allows birth)
Negative/Death
Okay, so given that we have detailed notes on the Trickster's ritual, where he describes the creation of the Compass, and the seven points, and then says to weight EACH point with the ELEMENT associated with it (including the element of Borning), and THEN bind them together...
I think you're being wilfully obtuse. Go back, reread the ritual notes, and then reread the spoken text of the ritual, and you'll see that your assertions are completely incorrect.
Here, I'll make it easy for you:
Quote Posted by Constantine's Notes
Draws the scribed Star, marks the Compasses. The Eye, shows the marksey lines of power.
Marks the Compass Borning, the Compass Leaf, the Stormsie Compass, the Flamesie Compass, the Compass Tidestream, the Compass Stone, the Compass Darkness.
Weights
each Starsie point with Elements of the Compass, with pure truest. Weights the Center with the Eye, fed mansblood, sees the Compasses and the bloodtrail to the trueworld.
Each Compass walks the Elements forth, paints to the Eye colors of heartsmaw Chaos, for follow the Eye back to the mansie world.
Binds the Eyevisions, gathers the sights the glories, open fulls the Eye to See forth the world, bloodcalled, compasspainted, chaosfed, paintings on the world the image is showed.
Quote Posted by Constantine's Ritual in Progress
"Vine grow and twine green and curl chokes and bind
Leaves unfurled thornsie spine tumble wall wreath and
Bine cover all leafsie mine call the vine call the
Green bringsie forth world be seen!
"Storm black and blow swirly gust strain winds flow
Pushing dust storm clouds grow darksie clouds
Lightning throw misty shroud freezie snow call the
Storm call the gray bringsie forth world's old way!
"Flame burning heat fences charred blazie sheet black
And tar manflesh meat melting gears dance and leap
Manfool's fear come to reap call the fire call the red
Bringsie forth past not dead!
"Tide rise and fall river flood rain and squall
Churning mud dam break all sea waves wash swampy
Squall sewer slosh drain pipes stall call the wave
Call the blue bringsie forth world anew!
"Stone grind and quake shatter tile call and shake
Break apile chip and flake darry soil windows break
Earthy toil wall unmake call earth call the brown
Bringsie forth world thrown down!
"Night smother light black brick lamp done with bright
Dew and damp smother tight dark and hide foolsie sight
Stay inside fear the night call the dark call the
Black bringsie forth I call it back!
"Open for me open to me open my way open the path open
For me open!"
Please note, each element (save Borning, which has already been completed, as we encounter the ritual
in media res) is listed in the same order as the ritual notes.
Again, note that the developers chose to use the same number of elemental forces in Thief 2.
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Oh and another thing..
to quote Viktoria 'as i draw my strength from this place..'
She's referring to the Maw. It's the center of her power. She's basically become Constantine's replacement there. If you have your own reality (dimension), you tend to be more powerful there.
.j.
Snakeskin on 5/12/2007 at 16:55
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... and I honestly don't know where you're getting this. This has no connection with any other in-game ideas. What he is doing is channeling the power of the Eye, and using it to See - ie, to remake the world as he wishes it.
That, apparently, is something the Eye can do.
The Eye already has a soul, by the way. If you've played TDS, you'll know that.
He is first of all channeling elemental energies, not the power of the eye. He channels then through the eye, and perhaps intends to use the eye to wield them.
Yes, the Eye has a soul. However alone it cannot gain more power, more energy in that soul. What makes the Eye special is that it is a soul, first of all, contained in something else than a creature. Second that it (or it's soul) is willing to cooperate with Constantine in whatever his mission.
It is clearly chaotic in nature and would like some changes from the current state of things
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That's... pretty out there. I have no idea where you're getting this theory. At no point in the ritual notes, or the Ritual proper, does the Trickster talk about creating a soul. He talks about making the Eye see reality as he wishes it to be, and about the eye opening for him, and opening the way for him.
Not a damned thing about souls.
Of course you don't.
Okay then, if you like to see it this way: he 'infuses' a soul, and connects to it to be able to wield it's power.
The opening of the eye would refer to this.
Not very out there, is it?
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... actually, that's EXACTLY what it would be. When you bind something, you tie everything else together. You don't tie a knot in a string and then collect all the things that knot is supposed to be tying together. You do it after you've gathered everything.
Haha great fun this use of metafores.
Imagine a glass, then imagine trying to mix a drink. First you take out the glass, then pour the fluids in it. Do you ever pour the fluids in thin air, and try to catch them later on with the glass?
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Okay, so given that we have detailed notes on the Trickster's ritual, where he describes the creation of the Compass, and the seven points, and then says to weight EACH point with the ELEMENT associated with it (including the element of Borning), and THEN bind them together...
I think you're being wilfully obtuse. Go back, reread the ritual notes, and then reread the spoken text of the ritual, and you'll see that your assertions are completely incorrect.
The binding force of the 'aetherial plane' could just as well be viewed as an ELEMENT.
The binding refers to the 'eyevisions'. That does not sound very element like to my ears, more like the intent of the Eye and Constantine.
And I think that you should keep comments such as that out of discussions, it is rude, and destructive of dialogue. Just because YOU do not want to step back and consider alternatives to your carved-in-stone opinions does not in any way make a constructive argument because you say so.
And thanks for the quotes.
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Again, note that the developers chose to use the same number of elemental forces in Thief 2.
If you mean TBoA, they are
circles, where one of the circles is clearly placed in the middle of all the other elements, and also in the torso of the man. It shows the elements tied together in the body of a man, through the middle circle.
If this would be supportive to your point of view, each element would be placed with equal importance to it, like in the trickster's star. NOT in the way they are portraited in TBoA.
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She's referring to the Maw. It's the center of her power. She's basically become Constantine's replacement there. If you have your own reality (dimension), you tend to be more powerful there.
That weird, since the place she is in in T2 doesnt even resemble the Maw from T1.
jtr7 on 5/12/2007 at 18:01
gar1006: “Is this the Maw? Looks… different.”
I have no problem believing he's simply in another part of the Maw.
All those eyeplants mock him since he's lost one of his.:p If the, uh, irises were the same color as Garrett's, it would be a sick assumption that they were made using The Eye and Garrett's eye. They at least represent a twisted combining of animal and vegetable.:eww:
The Eye was going to act like a projector. It would see into the other plane, and project that other reality into the Maw. Before the devs. changed their mind, The Eye had a stronger tie to the Trickster and called out "Master!" to warn him of Garrett's intrusion.
The elements in the Book of Ash are represented by circles, yes. Why is that a problem? Circles, squares, dodecahedrons.... The shape doesn't matter unless the picture is also the spell. It's merely a representation, not necessarily power in itself. It's a map of elemental energies.
Don't speak of rudeness in these discussions. I see rudeness in your comments, too. In fact, I've had to stop contributing at times, because I was also getting agitated. If there's a gross misunderstanding on either side, it needs to be addressed, civilly if possible. I apologize if we can't detect the positive attitude behind your wording, but understand, Snakeskin, it's hard at times.:)
Solabusca on 5/12/2007 at 18:11
Quote Posted by Snakeskin
He is first of all channeling elemental energies, not the power of the eye. He channels then through the eye, and perhaps intends to use the eye to wield them.
That we agree on. He's channelling elemental energy through the eye. That's what the entire bloody ritual is about.
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Yes, the Eye has a soul. However alone it cannot gain more power, more energy in that soul. What makes the Eye special is that it is a soul, first of all, contained in something else than a creature. Second that it (or it's soul) is willing to cooperate with Constantine in whatever his mission.
It is clearly chaotic in nature and would like some changes from the current state of things.
Sorry - I find this theory has no backing in the context of the game. At no point, in either the ritual notes or the ritual proper does Constantine/The Trickster mention a soul. There is nothing in the game to indicate that he is trying to create a virtual soul. Nor is there anything to indicate that the Eye is 'chaotic'. It's not random, it's perverse. It's evil. It's twisted. But not chaotic.
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Of course you don't.
Because there's nothing in the game to indicate that your idea is valid. Sorry, but there's nothing there.
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Okay then, if you like to see it this way: he 'infuses' a soul, and connects to it to be able to wield it's power.
Nothing in the game to indicate this. At all. We have a description of what the Ritual is supposed to do - it's going to channel all this energy through the Eye, and have it See the world the way that Constantine/Trickster wants it to be.
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The opening of the eye would refer to this.
... see my above statement. Nothing about souls.
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Not very out there, is it?
Completely out there. Something not even HINTED at in the in-game text and dialogue. Something that can't even be extrapolated (except, apparently, by you) from the in game text and dialogue.
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Haha great fun this use of metafores.
Imagine a glass, then imagine trying to mix a drink. First you take out the glass, then pour the fluids in it. Do you ever pour the fluids in thin air, and try to catch them later on with the glass?
A glass doesn't bind fluids. This isn't intended to be insulting - I know English isn't your first language, but binding has a specific meaning. To bind means to tie together. You can't tie something together unless it's there first. Your analogy, therefore, is understandably flawed.
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The binding force of the 'aetherial plane' could just as well be viewed as an ELEMENT.
See above, re: Binding. Secondly - how can a binding force be viewed as an element?
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The binding refers to the 'eyevisions'. That does not sound very element like to my ears, more like the intent of the Eye and Constantine.
Exactly. It's not element-like. That's because there is no binding 'element'. You're the person who ascribes to the theory that the Aether is a 'binding force'. I don't. That is my point.
Constantine is attempting to bind HIS vision of the world to reality, using the Eye as a focus. In short, he's using his WILLPOWER to bind everything together, and imposing his WILL upon the world. Using the Eye as his tool to do so.
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And I think that you should keep comments such as that out of discussions, it is rude, and destructive of dialogue. Just because YOU do not want to step back and consider alternatives to your carved-in-stone opinions does not in any way make a constructive argument because you say so.
Sorry, you've shown yourself to be both willingly obtuse and a bit argumentative on this matter. I've done nothing more than call you on it - no offense is intended.
I've considered your alternative and discarded it as completely fallacious, because it has no backing in the in-game documentation, dialogue, and setting details.
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And thanks for the quotes.
No worries. They're handy to have.
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If you mean TBoA, they are
circles, where one of the circles is clearly placed in the middle of all the other elements, and also in the torso of the man. It shows the elements tied together in the body of a man, through the middle circle.
I know I've linked you to a kabbalic Tree of Life before, and even a picture that looks to be a direct inspiration for it. Instead of the Sephiroths, it's got the seven elements mentioned in TDP - the 4 'classical' elements, and the more transcendent elements of Borning (Positive/Light/Life), Darkness(Darkness/Negative/Death), and then the Leaf/Green conundrum.
They could also have done up the entire diagram as a tree, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. They used a man because it looks more 'necromancer's grimoire'-esque. In short, because it looked cool.
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If this would be supportive to your point of view, each element would be placed with equal importance to it, like in the trickster's star. NOT in the way they are portraited in TBoA.
They are placed with equal importance. I could point out that the elements are arrayed as best they can be - four classic elements connecting to the natural/plant energy, which itself is between life and death. But really, they're positioned that way because it looks like a kabballic Tree of Life.
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That weird, since the place she is in in T2 doesnt even resemble the Maw from T1.
... which Garrett himself comments on in that very mission. The Maw has changed because Viktoria is in control, now. I'm guessing you missed that?
.j.
[EDIT TO ADD: And in just a few words, Jason basically says exactly what I've been trying to say. Thanks for the quote, jtr7.]
Baalak on 5/12/2007 at 18:36
I'm glad to see so many rapid fire posts, but I'm a little worried by the tone of some of them. It's not too hard to see some old tension here. I'm sorry that everyone isn't getting along better.
Sorry more because I agree with both of you, Solabusca and Snakeskin. To a degree, anyway. I can see there is a lot to what both of you are saying.
Personally, I don't look at the image in the Book of Ash and see what inspired it, I see an image from that world. I feel that if all the in-game information is to take president, then none of it can be explained away by its inspiration. The fact that the elements are arranged in a rough circle seems to have a deeper meaning which I attribute to the seventh, inner element being composed of equal parts of the other six radial elements. I don't consider the Aether to be an element as such, but the medium through which the others flow. If the elements are the dots in the circle, the Aether is the lines connecting them.
The argument about order of binding struck me as odd, because I can see a logical progression for both ways. Either gathering your elements together to be bound at once, or taking your rope and binding each element in turn as you come to it. Granted, the method which seems lost likely is the former, but the latter carries, at least in my eyes, a deeper spiritual significance. Less a bound ball of power, and more a chain of forces.
I agree that there is no direct in-game confirmation of Snakeskin's soul interpretation, but I don't think it is inconsistent with itself nor falls apart under scrutiny. It is not as supported by canon, but how much canon does it discount or ignore? As long as everything works out the same way in the end if you make the assumptions he is making, it's not a bad system and is certainly a valid interpretation. I don't happen to agree with him, but I can't at all say that he's wrong, either.
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Mediator, Hopefully.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
