Baalak on 5/12/2007 at 18:57
I regret giving the impression that I'm using the DnD cosmology. I intended to steal some ideas from it, but I see the system which I'm constructing as rather different than what TSR created. Given that it is my strongest influence, I can see how it comes across as being merely derived.
First, I see the Aether. Like an invisible ocean it fills the universe, creating all of space and time within it. Forces work inside it, churning its 'waters' to produce waves, and it is made more turbulent by its connection to the Elemental Planes.
From the far reaches of existence there comes energy from without. From all around this energy flows inward, carried by the aether, toward the center. Each of these sources of power is situated against its opposite, reaching tendrils of energy across the aether to combine and be destroyed as they clash. The sources of these energies are worlds unto themselves, through which the aether ebbs and flows. These planes, aligned strongly with a single element, mingle at their borders with their closest neighbors, altering their forms and energies as they streak through the aether like the breath of those worlds.
In the center of existence there is a seething cauldron of creation and destruction, where the elemental forces combine and are unmade. This is where the world that we know resides, forever riding the waves of the aether in balance with the elements. But the mixture of the elements gives rise to Will and that has a power all its own.
The Will of living beings tugs at the world in a way similar to the behavior of the Elements, but instead of being tugged and pushed from without, the struggle comes from within. The conflicting Will feeds off of belief, emotion, conviction, and takes on Wills of its own.
But the Aether is a big place, and beyond the reach of the elemental forces are dark mysterious places which man was not meant to know. These far realms are home to terrible beings which exist in ways we cannot, and are beyond the comprehension of a sane mind.
The world we know is not the only floating in the Aether, for there are countless multitudes of worlds like our own floating alongside ours in the misty seas of the universe, many with their own balance, their own life, their own Wills.
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Cosmographer.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
Snakeskin on 5/12/2007 at 20:17
Called mediator from this direction anyway, always good that there is someone to see both sides of something. :p
First i would like to say that i was just about to write what Balaak did, that everything in-game should be seen in context of the
game world, not supporting theories with various arguments about 'how the developers thought'.
This is completely irrelevant.
@Jtr7Agreed on the Maw then, at least that Garrett thinks it is the Maw.
About the circles, that was not what i meant. I meant that they are
merely circles, it doesn't say that they are all elements, as Sola assumes.
And finally about the rudeness, this stirs from before, you know it too. I try not to write to agitate, and i did not begin doing that this time either.
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I figure a God would know better, right?
Would you like to be met with this attitude? I hope not.
And further on with the same attitude, it is really rather natural to write back in the same manner.
However it is easier for you to see the attitude in my posts, because you have known Sola longer than me.
When I discuss with Sola, this seems to happen when we disagree. I at least admit that i am being rude, and try not to overdo it.
I will try to keep things civil, but that is much easier when both of us are doing it, and not starting on either side.
@BalaakA real relief to have at least partial agreement here, as you surely can see. You see the Aether exactly the same way that i do, and you also see
every other element as a force/plane duality.
Interesting, but i have never considered it.
About all he ropes, yes. I agree with you. That is what i intended with the glass example, however my sarcasm seemed to go unnoticed.
And glad to hear someone say that as well.
Further about the Aether, i'm not completely sure if i agree on the elemental planes yet. Up to this point i felt that the aether was the plane for all the elements, but we will see.
Also what you describe as Will, is pretty much parallell to my meaning of 'soul'.
Now this discussion just became interesting again :D
@SolabuscaI do not like to say that the Eye is evil. It is chaotic, it wants to see destruction, but that is it's will. there is no such thing as good or evil, except perhaps in D&D (no pun intended B ;) ). And it obviously gets along with Constantine, and we all agree that he's pretty chaotic?
Also, quite a lot of your own extrapolations are not supported in-game.
1. that Constantine binds elemental power with his
will alone
2. all the 'they merely used this because of that'. not in context.
3. that all points on the star must represent
natural elements
The whole 'binding' discussion is just silly,
that is what i was trying to point at with the glass example. Pure sarcasm. We are not discussing ropes here.
How can a binding force NOT be seen as an element? What is an element? A type of energy, a force. Exactly what i said, but you seem to ignore that i also say that this "element" exists in a plane as well.
I have all this time agreed that the aether is a medium and still you argue with 'the aether is a medium, thus cannot be an element' while i say it is both.
Also, as you see, i am not the only one who sees that they are
not placed with equal importance in TBoA.
I feel that much of this 'discussing' spurs from your will to disprove my every word, because, as Balaak seem to have noticed, there is something more behind this.
Things like the 'the eye is evil but not chaotic' and 'you use ropes to bind things together, silly' comments support this. Those two, among some, are completely
subjective opinions and clearly the direct opposite of mine.
I cant recall if i made similar ones, however i am usually careful
not to do so.
I have changed my mind on a number of points, being proven wrong. About the soul of the Eye, and probably about the Maw. I am not stubborn enough not to see when i'm wrong, and when i realize i am, i admit it.
This is a discussion of fanon, we
know only what we
know from the games. Everything from there is fiction, thus noone is
wrong.
As for the whole soul thing, that is my interpretation of the 'aether' following my initial assumptions of it. This is purely fanon, obviously. Please stop trying to "disprove" it by repeating 'the game doesnt say so!', thats not valid.
Infact i know the game doesn't clearly say so, but exactly how much does Thief tell us clearly? Not doing so about the background is the one thing we all love about the games.
And, in fact, it ties together many more loose ends than your theory does.
Living souls, undead, ghosts and how they behave and look, the elemental theory feels more complete when it agrees with the BoA picture, how life is created, how collector towers work (drawing aetherial energy), well basically many things are able to be tied together and/or explained by this theory.
And that is why i like it.
Solabusca on 6/12/2007 at 01:31
Snakeskin - a few comments:
If we're going by what's in the game world, I will mention that I'm not creating anything that is not directly supportable by the in-game information. I'm not creating Fanon, not coming up with completely changing the nature of the in-game cosmology to fit (ie, the nature of elements.)
We know that Dark Magic (which is MOST LIKELY classified with the element Darkness) animates the dead. We know that the Trickster one of this world's Deities refers to seven elements - defined in the terms of magical elemental forces (I don't need to redefine one as 'aether' as well).
We know that, in addition to the 7 elemental forces mentioned, there exists Aether.
We know that certain structures, called Collector Towers, exist.
We know that the Hand Mages use elemental energies, AND elementals, and believe they can tap into elemental planes.
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@Jtr7
Agreed on the Maw then, at least that Garrett thinks it is the Maw.
Actually, the developers did, too. Fancy that.
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About the circles, that was not what i meant. I meant that they are
merely circles, it doesn't say that they are all elements, as Sola assumes.
Actually, the four outer circles are most assuredly elemental in nature, seeing as how they are marked with the four elemental signs that exist on the four elemental keys in TDP. We also know that of the three INNER circles, one is black. Given that there are seven circles, and seven elements listed in the Trickster's magic ritual, it's not really a stretch to suggest that these are the same seven elements (given that we have the 4 physical elements + 1 of the 'spiritual' elements).
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And finally about the rudeness, this stirs from before, you know it too. I try not to write to agitate, and i did not begin doing that this time either.
Your tone gets under my skin, because you become put on a mask of attempting to be reasonable when your actual intention is to lash out. Then you throw around ridiculous accusations about how I refuse to budge from my position.
I'll be blunt with you. I've considered your view of the Thief cosmology - I find it questionable, at best. I find it incredibly convoluted, and that it requires a complete re-interpretation of the in-game material to even come close to flying.
I've considered it and rejected it. Of the two theories, yours and Baalaks, I find his closer to the mark. I, at least, can see a closer connection between the afore mentioned Green/Leaf with Nature/Life element as the mixing of all the other elements.
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Would you like to be met with this attitude? I hope not.
It wasn't attitude, it was statement of documented in-game knowledge. A God of that world says that there are seven elements. None of them is listed as a binding element. In point of fact, the Eye is listed as the thing that will bind them all.
It wasn't a jab or a jibe - the in-game information does not match your idea.
@BalaakA real relief to have at least partial agreement here, as you surely can see. You see the Aether exactly the same way that i do, and you also see
every other element as a force/plane duality.
Except Borning/Light would be opposite Darkness/Death. Or do you suggest Birth and Death are not opposites? I've already suggested that the three 'spiritual' forces are in balance. Birth - Life - Death. One descending from the other - at least, that's my own interpretation based on the BoA picture.
I'm MUCH more inclined to agree with Baalak's assertion that Aether is the lines connecting all the elements in that diagram, where the central circle is the Green element of Life.
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@SolabuscaI do not like to say that the Eye is evil. It is chaotic, it wants to see destruction, but that is it's will. there is no such thing as good or evil, except perhaps in D&D (no pun intended B ;) ).
I'll say it's corrupted, then. I'm not interested in D&D alignment arguements. A perverted, corrupted thing that is interested in destroying everything is, for my money, evil - not in terms of a game, but in terms of the real world. It is a creepy little artefact. It's nastiness is palpable.
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And it obviously gets along with Constantine, and we all agree that he's pretty chaotic?
You keep dragging game terms into this - I don't think the Eye is chaotic - it's not interested in causing confusion, it is interested in causing SUFFERING, and in destroying things.
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Also, quite a lot of your own extrapolations are not supported in-game.
1. that Constantine binds elemental power with his
will alone
The imposition of Will on reality is a common theme in magic.
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2. all the 'they merely used this because of that'. not in context.
I'll concede that point. I SUSPECT they used a human shape for those reasons. I have no concrete knowledge.
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3. that all points on the star must represent
natural elements
No, I state that all points on the star represent the elements that Constantine/The Tricskter LIST as elements in the ritual notes.
The object in the centre, the Eye, would be what is binding those forces together. This is a position strongly supported by the in-game documentation and the in-game dialogue.
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How can a binding force NOT be seen as an element? What is an element? A type of energy, a force. Exactly what i said, but you seem to ignore that i also say that this "element" exists in a plane as well.
I can't get you to grasp the concept, unfortunately. I find that I have the weight of genre writing on my side. In almost every fantasy ritual I can think of, the caster summons all the arcane energies, THEN binds them together. Even in this one - the Ritual mentions Binding at the very end.
The Ritual is an attempt to focus the will of the caster - in this case, the Trickster. That's a pretty standard definition of ritual.
Again, I find more interest in Baalak's idea that the Aether fills the gaps between the energies, and is not an energy in and of itself. I'm willing to give more credence to his idea (and even after I've reread it - his idea and your idea are very, very different.)
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I have all this time agreed that the aether is a medium and still you argue with 'the aether is a medium, thus cannot be an element' while i say it is both.
And I don't see a Will Element listed.
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Also, as you see, i am not the only one who sees that they are
not placed with equal importance in TBoA.
I say that they are placed with equal importance because they all have a listed place. One element seems to be connected to all the others. But it makes very little sense, in a dualistic/opposing system to have birth be the central element. When we have Birth/Death, one is opposite the other. Meaning at opposite ends of the spectrum.
If you wanted to posit that the central element is the World - hell, I can go along with that. And to me, that would mean Green/Leaf. Nature, made up of all the elements.
But otherwise, Green is the odd one out.
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I feel that much of this 'discussing' spurs from your will to disprove my every word, because, as Balaak seem to have noticed, there is something more behind this.
No, it really stems from the way you interact with me on the matter. I keep trying to cleave as closely as possible to the in-game subject matter. You keep adding embellishments that I find both unwarranted, and see where you have completely missed certain facts (like the Birth/Death dichotomy - if you have Birth/Life/Death or Birth/Death, in both cases BIRTH is the opposite of Death.)
When I point it out, you get testy.
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Things like the 'the eye is evil but not chaotic' and 'you use ropes to bind things together, silly' comments support this.
... The first comment was not made using game based terms. I didn't apply them, you did. I explained this up-post. Please review that.
The 'rope' comment was simple - you were creating a flawed analogy. A glass does not bind, it contains. You can't say that the glass binds water. It contains it.
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Those two, among some, are completely
subjective opinions and clearly the direct opposite of mine.
Unfortunately, my opinions are fairly OBjective. I'm willing to concede points made that are valid - take a look in this thread. I have, in past, even thought of things in terms very similar to Baalak's ideas.
I keep my opinions extremely closely tied to the in-game (and in-genre) information. I don't come up with wild conjecture.
A lot of what you do, sir, is.
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I have changed my mind on a number of points, being proven wrong. About the soul of the Eye, and probably about the Maw.
It seems you concede only when told by people who are not me. I told you about the Maw. You disagreed until a third party came along. Two seconds of research on your part would have shown you that I was providing accurate information.
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This is a discussion of fanon, we
know only what we
know from the games. Everything from there is fiction, thus noone is
wrong.
Actually, most of what I discuss is canonical. I do make minor extrapolations (like suggesting that collector towers are collecting the magical energies), but I would say that most of what I put forth is directly related to canon.
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As for the whole soul thing, that is my interpretation of the 'aether' following my initial assumptions of it. This is purely fanon, obviously. Please stop trying to "disprove" it by repeating 'the game doesnt say so!', thats not valid.
You keep moving the goal-posts. I'm trying to work from canon, from material that is directly included in the game. I don't really recall many instances where I've had to be corrected about that.
If you're not, please stop trying to muddy the water with fanon - it's not that it's not interesting, but - I will ask you to please, take it elsewhere. If one of us is working with canon and trying to stick as closely as possible, and the other is just making things up on the fly, it would seem that the one keeping the canonical information would be better equipped to comment.
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Infact i know the game doesn't clearly say so, but exactly how much does Thief tell us clearly? Not doing so about the background is the one thing we all love about the games.
And, in fact, it ties together many more loose ends than your theory does.
My "theory" is drawn directly from the in-game canon. I have no idea WHY you think it doesn't tie things together. Perhaps you should blame the game designers.
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Living souls, undead, ghosts and how they behave and look, the elemental theory feels more complete when it agrees with the BoA picture, how life is created, how collector towers work (drawing aetherial energy), well basically many things are able to be tied together and/or explained by this theory.
And that is why i like it.
Only with the addition of REAMS of convoluted, outright contradictory, or completely non-canonical information.
You enjoy creating fanon, pure and simple. And that's fine - I think you should enjoy doing so. You like your ideas, and cleave to them regardless of whether or not there is any in-game support. That, too, is fine.
But please stop trying to impose your fanon on the in-game canon for these discussions. You have a distinct problem separating the two.
Basically, to me it seems like you keep going "Yeah, well that's not what's in the game, but ISN'T MY IDEA COOLER?!?".
Again, there's a lot of in-game information about this available to us. You really should review it - I have, which is why I feel more confident about the validity of the ideas that I've posted.
.j.
