Snakeskin on 6/12/2007 at 15:40
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If we're going by what's in the game world, I will mention that I'm not creating anything that is not directly supportable by the in-game information. I'm not creating Fanon, not coming up with completely changing the nature of the in-game cosmology to fit (ie, the nature of elements.)
You are, as me interpreting the in-game facts. You, like me, do not know anything more than we are told.
Im not changing anything to fit more than you do, you want to fit in those elements in that tree-of-life of yours, i go in a different direction.
You place the elements (for example 'green') in the middle, while it is not really supported by the picture.
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We know that Dark Magic (which is MOST LIKELY classified with the element Darkness) animates the dead. We know that the Trickster one of this world's Deities refers to seven elements - defined in the terms of magical elemental forces (I don't need to redefine one as 'aether' as well).
We know that, in addition to the 7 elemental forces mentioned, there exists Aether.
First one, correct.
Second, i am not 'redefining' anything. My interpretation of 'borning' fits perfectly with my aether theory.
Third, this is wrong, unless i missed the crucial in-game evidence that said there are 7 separate elements
and 'the aether'. Aetherial communication is carried through the 'aetherial plane' in my theory, works with in-game facts. At least i think so.
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Actually, the four outer circles are most assuredly elemental in nature, seeing as how they are marked with the four elemental signs that exist on the four elemental keys in TDP. We also know that of the three INNER circles, one is black. Given that there are seven circles, and seven elements listed in the Trickster's magic ritual, it's not really a stretch to suggest that these are the same seven elements (given that we have the 4 physical elements + 1 of the 'spiritual' elements).
I never questioned this, it is perfectly logical.
However
your interpretation of the element borning, for example, is speculation.
That is not in-game fact, and that is just as much fanon as what i am suggesting.
Please try to see this.
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Your tone gets under my skin, because you become put on a mask of attempting to be reasonable when your actual intention is to lash out. Then you throw around ridiculous accusations about how I refuse to budge from my position.
We are both guilty of this.
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I've considered it and rejected it. Of the two theories, yours and Baalaks, I find his closer to the mark. I, at least, can see a closer connection between the afore mentioned Green/Leaf with Nature/Life element as the mixing of all the other elements.
Interesting.
Take care to notice that he thinks there are only six elements bound together by aether, as i do.
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Except Borning/Light would be opposite Darkness/Death. Or do you suggest Birth and Death are not opposites? I've already suggested that the three 'spiritual' forces are in balance. Birth - Life - Death. One descending from the other - at least, that's my own interpretation based on the BoA picture.
As i suggest:
Life-Borning/Aether/elemental combinations creating creatures-Death
Yes.. yes i am.
It is good to see you actually saying yourself that it is your own interpretation and not in-game fact. Much appreciated.
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I'm MUCH more inclined to agree with Baalak's assertion that Aether is the lines connecting all the elements in that diagram, where the central circle is the Green element of Life.
I'm sure you are.
Escpecially since he never mentioned 'green' in the middle circle, but instead an elemental combination, in the same manner that i do.
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You keep dragging game terms into this - I don't think the Eye is chaotic - it's not interested in causing confusion, it is interested in causing SUFFERING, and in destroying things.
Most would say this is rather chaotic behaviour.
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I'll concede that point. I SUSPECT they used a human shape for those reasons. I have no concrete knowledge.
Indeed. And i think that we need to treat all these in-game facts as simply that, and put it in the context of other in-game facts. Not ones out here in ur world.
Can you agree to this?
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No, I state that all points on the star represent the elements that Constantine/The Tricskter LIST as elements in the ritual notes.
The object in the centre, the Eye, would be what is binding those forces together. This is a position strongly supported by the in-game documentation and the in-game dialogue.
Nothing her deviates from my opinion.
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Again, I find more interest in Baalak's idea that the Aether fills the gaps between the energies, and is not an energy in and of itself. I'm willing to give more credence to his idea (and even after I've reread it - his idea and your idea are very, very different.)
Thus i think it is time for Balaak to perhaps explain more in detail what he really means, since neither you nor I can agree on what he seems to be thinking.
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I say that they are placed with equal importance because they all have a listed place. One element seems to be connected to all the others. But it makes very little sense, in a dualistic/opposing system to have birth be the central element. When we have Birth/Death, one is opposite the other. Meaning at opposite ends of the spectrum.
What makes you think that Life is not the opposite of Death?
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The 'rope' comment was simple - you were creating a flawed analogy. A glass does not bind, it contains. You can't say that the glass binds water. It contains it.
Totally subjective.
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Unfortunately, my opinions are fairly OBjective.
Facts are objective, opinions are not. Please look up the definition of opinion in your nearest dictionary.
Here, for your viewing plasure:
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o·pin·ion /əˈpɪnyən/ Pronunciation Key
Pronunciation[uh-pin-yuhn]
-noun
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
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It seems you concede only when told by people who are not me. I told you about the Maw. You disagreed until a third party came along. Two seconds of research on your part would have shown you that I was providing accurate information.
Well. wrong. You did never present the proof that Jtr7 did, thus i was not inclined to agree until he did.
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Only with the addition of REAMS of convoluted, outright contradictory, or completely non-canonical information.
You fail to support this statement with arguments.
Snakeskin on 6/12/2007 at 15:53
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Non-along-gettings aside, the elements discussion was terribly interesting. It got me thinking about it. Solabusca, you explained how you saw what I had explained, and I thought I could clarify my position a bit.
Beat me to it there ;)
good call.
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I see there being the four cardinal elements, Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. Imagine them spread out along the circumference's of a ring, Earth and Air opposite, and Fire and Water opposite. This would mean that Fire touches Earth and Air, Earth touches Water and Fire, Water touches Air and Earth, and Air touches Fire and Water. Each of these points of contact create joined elemental forces, the results of the two elements merging to form something with properties of both, but isn't really either any longer.
So far identical to what i've written.
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Take another ring, and set it perpendicular to the first, as the Y axis is to the X axis. Along this ring, place the light force of Life, and the dark force of Death. This second ring allows the light and dark elements to touch each of the four cardinal elements, and be opposed by it's partner. Life breathes creative, radiant energy into the elements, creating joined elements which nourish, vibrate, and grow. Death corrupts and destroys, creating joined elements which suffocate, corrode, darken, and dissolve.
Very similar to my ideas again.
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Where all
six elements touch, living things spring up, and the world we know resides, created of the seventh element, the green living element the Trickster refers to. It does not grant life, it
is alive. It is not born and does not die, because life itself does not begin or end, merely exist and grow. It is harsh and brutal, because Nature is those things, but it also nurtures and flourishes. There is no life without death, and both are needed for the Green.
Which in my interpretation is identical to 'borning', that which is the living things, but does not create them.
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All of these elemental forces have planes associated with them, save for the seventh, the Green, Nature. It's plane is the world which we know, and it's power radiates outward, not inward. It gives rise to Will, which in turn gives rise to the Deities and Powers which mortals call Gods.
Following your ideas that every element has a plane of it's own, this seems like a fitting and logical theory.
Your 'Will' would be my 'soul'. That which is inherent in living things, and ghosts. I never begun in the end with 'gods', but since the trickter is alive he must have a soul as well.
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These Gods are the embodiment of the Will and ideas of mortals, and as such are beings which can be called Good or Evil, because they conform to the beliefs granting them power. The Builder is not Good or Evil, but embodies the structure or human life. The Trickster is not Good or Evil, but embodies the discord and chaos of the natural world. Both are kind to those in harmony with them, and both are cruel to those who rise against them, and such is the way of humanity. There are no Gods of Good or Evil, merely Order and Discord.
Placing 'chaos' and 'order' in the theory as well. I fully agree with this, the gods will get their power directly from the will of the living.
Please correct me if i misinterpreted your idea, but as i see them, they are very similar to mine with the addition of the elemental planes, which i never really considered in the first place. :)
Baalak on 6/12/2007 at 16:15
You asked me to further clarify my ideas in regards to yours, Snakeskin, and I'd be happy to. While I don't fully agree with Solabusca's interpretation of the seven elements, I don't fully agree with yours either.
The disagreement over what constitutes an Element or a Medium seems unnecessary to me. The Elements can be manipulated, and so can the Aether. It doesn't exist as a sphere in the Book of Ash (in my opinion) but that doesn't mean it has no elemental properties. I rather like to see the Aether as a representation of Forces, Time, and Space, and that it has no plane like the Elemental planes, but is instead the space in which those planes exist.
What I'm trying to say is that I don't see the Aether as the seventh Element, but as something else, which is element-like, but not the same as the others. I don't think that the seventh Element is Life, resting between Birth and Death, either. I'm working with a looser interpretation of the Trickster's ritual, and I don't mind that because he uses quite a lot of colorful language within it, and I think that leaves room for disagreement.
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Different.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
Snakeskin on 6/12/2007 at 17:08
Goodie.
Well, i agree on that, since that is what i base my assumption on the six elements and the aether on. The aether seems to have some elemental properties (such as being a force here, a binding force) but being very different from the other six.
Mainly because it is neutral, and do not have a direct effect on the material world.
I previously imagined the aether as a higher plane than the material plane, and, if adding the elemental planes it is not a stretch givign them the same 'status' as the material plane.
It is indeed necessary, as the aether is the 'communication' between those planes.
What i would like to see the seventh circle as, is the soul. The soul would follow Borning, since when the aether binds together the six elements it also allows a soul to be born. The soul would contain the will of a living being. :)
EDIT: and as you say, the Trickster use quite a bit of tricksie language. I do not see much difficulty in assuming that what he names the elements are his interpretation of them.
Thus the element of 'life' seems perfectly logical being called 'green' by the Trickster. However while he names it green, it is really meaning something bigger, namely all life. He is seeing this through his own eyes.
Borning, then would also be open for interpretation. And i ended up with what i've already told you.
jtr7 on 6/12/2007 at 18:41
So then, Balaak, have you settled on a concept you are happy with?:thumb:
This would be a good time to either ask for opinions on a very specific aspect of the cosmology, or continue the heaven/hell topic, branch off, or start a fresh sub-topic about the Thief Universe.:cool:
------------
I was able to send my ETU collaborator a progress report [read: a map ready enough for the next phase] for 1 of the 3 current maps I'm working on, and I was able to make my last post before going to sleep.
Baalak on 6/12/2007 at 18:54
Hmm... I think I like what I have so far. I appreciate all the suggestions and ideas, fellas, it's really helped me think hard about the subject and condense a working model. For the time being, I think we can lay this to rest. But what to move on to?
Why don't we talk about the Keeper's Glyphs? There is a lot about Deadly Shadows I don't want to consider canon, like the Keeper Assassins for one, but a lot of their Glyph magic strikes me as fascinating- and it's so different from the other magic we see in the world.
My ideas are very scattered and haphazard at the moment, so I don't have much to throw out right yet, unfortunately. What do you guys think about them? There's a lot to go over.
jtr7, hooray for progress reports!
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Glyphophile.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
jtr7 on 6/12/2007 at 19:11
Whew! That's a biggie! I'll go collect some Glyphy things and drop by later.
Baalak on 6/12/2007 at 19:13
Quote Posted by jtr7
Whew! That's a biggie! I'll go collect some Glyphy things and drop by later.
Somehow, I knew you couldn't resist. Looking forward to it!
[RIGHT][INDENT]- Baalak called Anticipation.[/INDENT][/RIGHT]
Snakeskin on 6/12/2007 at 19:15
Glyphs are imo, an enchanting type of magic much similar to rune-magic in different systems.
The glyphs, as magic, not as the glyph language (that is a different purpose of them) their purpose is to bestow an effect on an object, place or person. A lasting, and often unseen effect.
Since the effects are so permanent, there is great power in wielding glyph magic. However the only known organization using them are the keepers, and they are very careful about how to handle them.
I will post my writing on glyphs so far, Balaak has probably read it already, but for other eyes and the sake of discussion (and my tired fingers).
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Glyph Magic (Elusive)
Glyphs are written symbols, making up an alphabet of immense size and the different combinations and interpretations of glyphs can never be fully understood even by one devoting his life to them. Glyphs can have a magically charged meaning and magical effects, depending on the one creating them. The glyphs are unknown to almost all, and the only organization that teaches and uses glyph magic are the Keepers.
As a scribe a young keeper is drilled in writing and interpreting glyphs, to learn the basics of glyph magic one has to understand and learn the glyphs. As scribes they are later taught the basics of using glyphs along with their training in other areas.
A keeper Acolyte is generally well trained in common glyph magic and uses that knowledge while carrying out missions for the order. Elder keepers have encountered even more powerful glyphs, often by individual research, and are able to use their abilities for other purposes than their own, to enchant passageways,…
Glyph Scrying (Elusive)
This is a practice used by the Keepers to gain understandings of things that are happening or will happen, to be prepared to keep forces balanced by the best of their abilities. All keepers read glyphs, and consult glyphs for advice when needed. The problem is glyphs are numerous, and can almost always be interpreted in different ways, or riddles, not giving a direct answer. Also hidden meanings within glyphs, or glyphs disguised as other glyph signs trouble one trying to read them.
Scribes devote their time to understanding these things, while recording knowledge and translating and copying glyphs and texts, gaining basic knowledge of how glyphs work. Different collections of glyphs are available to keepers depending on rank and access to parts of the library, and glyphs may tell different individuals different things. The more complex collections are often the most valuable, one of these are the so called Prophecies. The Prophecies are written a long time ago and are said to contain the past, the present and the future. One individual, the Interpreter, has the task of deciphering these texts. Aided by her Translator, she is able to give the elder keepers information when needed. In case of an impending expected crisis, the Prophecies are consulted for advice.
Keepers can also consult the magic on their own, writing glyphs to gain a feeling for the type of advice. This is a method learned by time and trial, any keeper may try to consult glyphs for advice. The Glyph Scrying skill is used.
If others are interested i have well done descriptions of many glyphs, not done by me, but another person writing fanon with me. :thumb:
jtr7 on 6/12/2007 at 19:21
I don't know what you've already gathered for yourself. Have you seen this?
(
http://thief.nov.ru/glyphs.htm) http://thief.nov.ru/glyphs.htm
Good to provide another link to all the glyphs (the great majority of them, anyway), regardless.
